MBA Application Essays : Of Self-Introspection,Insights and other flaff

[iday]

Originally Posted by jaiBoloh

Iday and inblue, I do not mean to hijack this thread, but your thoughts were unequivocal, and I like them. dudes who need these instructions would be well-informed.

No thread belongs to any individual
you hijack a thread only when u post unrelated stuff, which you arent

Originally Posted by jaiBoloh

I like that dude... I personally can vouch that this attitude will take you to the heights...

That line is originally mine
But yeah, kgkid used it coz he shares the same attitude.

Let me beat him in thanking u for that

[Oxymoron]

Originally Posted by pagalguy

Yep, I do believe I made it because of what I was and what I did. The toughest thing people would have done in their lives is introspection. An app process does end up forcing people to think and sometimes think on the lines of what an adcom might want to listen.

Allwin,being part of this forum for almost four years I know what you did ( the emphasis on "did" and still doing ) and with respect to the "insights" no one can have a bally idea except you. And your last line is very telling..and that is exactly what I am saying..."An app process does end up forcing people to think and sometimes think on the lines of what an adcom might want to listen "
No one is sugggesting one needs to cook up incidents. An incident is a fait accompli ( oh well atleast in most cases I would presume it would be..I mean if one claims one brought 10 million revenue to a ocmpany it should be verifiable for doubting Thomases but then again some incidents are not quanitifiable. For eg) My leadership and people skills made my team a much more producitve and close knit unit. I mean unless that productivity could be demonstrated in "figures" and assuming there are no extenuating circumstancesthere will always be doubting Thomases..not to mention the cynics and the realists..) but au contraie an "insight" is a purely subjective thing. And that is exactly what Susie Derkins is saying ( and I totally acquiesce with ) that it can be "faked".

I mean lets face it...the only difference between faking and self-delusion is the former knows he/she is being deluded....

Originally Posted by iday

I do (i guess u'd have expected me to come out with this response)

"what you are" doesnt make the insights part.
"what you projected you to be" also doesnt make the insights part.

"why you are what you are" makes the insight part. And it takes some serious digging to understand how ur life has shaped up over the years. When i wrote Stanford's famous "What matters most to you and why" essay, i learned a lot about me than i thought i knew Needless to say, i went back to my other essays and made changes. I guess if i were to write my essays again, they'd come out differently.

Ah we are talking semantics now.. Yes introspection is necessary...but what is also important is that the "insights" one projects one gains from the introspections is not radical...yes I know what I am and also why I am what I am..but also know the "why" bit doesnt always cut ice everywhere. If one is ruthless at rationalization one is not exactly everyone's idea of a "mate".
I am willing to bet my dollar that if one's goed thro' a fine comb in the essays of the successful applicants one will feel a common strain of "insights". Which is quite understandable as well.

The "insight" bit depends largely on one's cultural,philosophical and psychological disposition. Again this is a no brainer. For the given same "incident" the insight I would have had could be largely different from another guy's. And well lets face it we only have the person's word for the "insight" bit. ( and need I even tell the fickleness of human mindand how against all demonstrable evidence and facts most of us "believe" what we "want to believe"). So dont fake up an incident ( it could be because one is honest,ideal and it goes against one's principles or more practically because one would get caught if a thorough verification is done . Choose your justification. )

Originally Posted by cracked-it

Now about hard to believe part - look around. Its everywhere! As long as you can sell a dream (whether real or fake) you will have better chances of getting in. If you can sleep peacefully in the night after cooking up your insights go ahead and do it. But if it keeps pinching you somewhere in your heart then don't. The decision to use "Susie method" would be purely based on your value system.

Couldnt have put it better...in the end it depends on one's mindset and value system. ( ofcourse all this talk about "value" system is itself a load of balderdash but I dont expect many people to agree with me there..)

That's that I guess....

[iday]

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

So dont fake up an incident ( it could be because one is honest,ideal and it goes against one's principles or more practically because one would get caught if a thorough verification is done . Choose your justification.)

Oh - a thorough verification of everything u mention in ur app is always done
This process happens after you get an admit and in almost ALL schools, the admission is confirmed only after verification. I said almost coz some schools place the onus on the applicant - an example would be Tuck

[Crash_test_dummy]

Originally Posted by iday

Oh - a thorough verification of everything u mention in ur app is always done
This process happens after you get an admit and in almost ALL schools, the admission is confirmed only after verification. I said almost coz some schools place the onus on the applicant - an example would be Tuck

Sorry for deviating from the topic guys, but this post got me a little worried. What does a "thorough verification" entail? How will they verify things for which im not in a position to produce proof of and what'll they do if much later in the app cycle they demand proof of something and i cant produce it? I worked as an independent volunteer at a particular natural disaster relief effort (NO, not 26/7, that one's been done to death on the application circuit ). I wasnt associated with any NGO and therefore i have no certificates and it pinched my conscience to carry a camera to a disaster site to take fancy pics of me helping the needy just to prove that i did it...but the Lord knows i did . Abhi if i mention it on my app and a "thorough verification" thing happens and they have only my word on the matter, phir kya hoga? Should i avoid mentioning it altogether (it'd be pretty sad if i didnt get credit for it) or just put it on the app and claim its authenticity? Similarly, if i claim i saved "xyz man-hours a month" for my company thru some maha-idea that struck me at 3am, how do they verify that? One way, i suppose is to talk to my recommender? Would they ask him whether my claim is genuine? Now, my boss manages 60 people and he wouldnt remember the details of everyone's achievements. What if he goes like..."hmmm...im not sure about that one!"? Somebody answer me!

iday, it is true that schools verify credentials of those they admit, but this they do AFTER an applicant accepts the school's offer...the check isnt done before making the offer, coz even top schools tend to have low yields and conducting checks on people who end up not accepting the offers is a waste of xyz man hours a month

That said, i've known people who got away with wild lies (my classmate went thru two years at NYU by inventing fake workex at a non-existent company...he's doing Asian equities with JP as i type this) and there have been ppl who got thrown out in the middle of the program coz the school decided to do a random nanny on them. Smoebody plz clarify on this verification bit and how i should position my claims that have very little concrete backing.

Sorry again for the topic deviation....

[kgkid]

Originally Posted by Crash_test_dummy

Sorry for deviating from the topic guys, but this post got me a little worried. What does a "thorough verification" entail? How will they verify things for which im not in a position to produce proof of and what'll they do if much later in the app cycle they demand proof of something and i cant produce it? I worked as an independent volunteer at a particular natural disaster relief effort (NO, not 26/7, that one's been done to death on the application circuit ). I wasnt associated with any NGO and therefore i have no certificates and it pinched my conscience to carry a camera to a disaster site to take fancy pics of me helping the needy just to prove that i did it...but the Lord knows i did . Abhi if i mention it on my app and a "thorough verification" thing happens and they have only my word on the matter, phir kya hoga? Should i avoid mentioning it altogether (it'd be pretty sad if i didnt get credit for it) or just put it on the app and claim its authenticity? Similarly, if i claim i saved "xyz man-hours a month" for my company thru some maha-idea that struck me at 3am, how do they verify that? One way, i suppose is to talk to my recommender? Would they ask him whether my claim is genuine? Now, my boss manages 60 people and he wouldnt remember the details of everyone's achievements. What if he goes like..."hmmm...im not sure about that one!"? Somebody answer me!

iday, it is true that schools verify credentials of those they admit, but this they do AFTER an applicant accepts the school's offer...the check isnt done before making the offer, coz even top schools tend to have low yields and conducting checks on people who end up not accepting the offers is a waste of xyz man hours a month

That said, i've known people who got away with wild lies (my classmate went thru two years at NYU by inventing fake workex at a non-existent company...he's doing Asian equities with JP as i type this) and there have been ppl who got thrown out in the middle of the program coz the school decided to do a random nanny on them. Smoebody plz clarify on this verification bit and how i should position my claims that have very little concrete backing.

Sorry again for the topic deviation....

While I am not sure how the schools verify..they have 3rd party people do it for them such as Kroll. I havent started verifications for my apps but I have everything verifiable. They might ask you for some contacts if you listed some glorified achievement in Extra-curricular or community activities. Some schools are proactive such as Harvard, and most do after an admit. Dont worry about their yields coz they would turn out a guy without thinking twice if something is forged. I remember a guy in Wharton being turned down becaused he falsified his title. Another thing, if those things (such as your friend's case) comes out later at any point of his career, his degree would be rescinded. No questions asked. Living like that is like living as a thief (you would always worry about the police )
As far as your case is concered, if you did not glorify situations for example resurrected 50 people during that sole initiative, you would be fine. Chances are that they would not have even considered that achievement to give you an admit. Schools typically give credit for something that can be verified in extras and comm service.

[Crash_test_dummy]

Originally Posted by kgkid

While I am not sure how the schools verify..they have 3rd party people do it for them such as Kroll. I havent started verifications for my apps but I have everything verifiable. They might ask you for some contacts if you listed some glorified achievement in Extra-curricular or community activities. Some schools are proactive such as Harvard, and most do after an admit. Dont worry about their yields coz they would turn out a guy without thinking twice if something is forged. I remember a guy in Wharton being turned down becaused he falsified his title. Another thing, if those things (such as your friend's case) comes out later at any point of his career, his degree would be rescinded. No questions asked. Living like that is like living as a thief (you would always worry about the police )
As far as your case is concered, if you did not glorify situations for example resurrected 50 people during that sole initiative, you would be fine. Chances are that they would not have even considered that achievement to give you an admit. Schools typically give credit for something that can be verified in extras and comm service.

hey thanks for the prompt reply. Hmmm...i can ask some key people to give my reference in case need arises, so thats some relief...i thought i'd have to drop mentioning it altogether from my app. i do have a "glorified" community service achievement, but most of it is true...its just been a little sexed-up and i've run it thru a juicer to squeeze some "insights" out of it . I've heard that the most common sources of verification are your recommenders. Univs tend to trust them a lot. Some univs grill you intensely on a particular topic if they feel you've faked it. i think its a lot about selling yourself. An admissions consultant told me they dont question your volunteer work claims...they just ask round-about questions on it during interviews and see if your face turns pale.

As for getting caught, i supose there is heavy penalty apart from being thrown out of the program. I've heard they cancel your visa or something. Not sure. But another thought came to my mind...now that my friend in US has worked for a coupla years at a top co, and gained valuable work ex, would it really matter if his degree was withdrawn? after a while, where you studied and your degree earned ceases to matter and only your work ex counts...just a thought!

[kgkid]

Originally Posted by Crash_test_dummy

hey thanks for the prompt reply. Hmmm...i can ask some key people to give my reference in case need arises, so thats some relief...i thought i'd have to drop mentioning it altogether from my app. i do have a "glorified" community service achievement, but most of it is true...its just been a little sexed-up and i've run it thru a juicer to squeeze some "insights" out of it . I've heard that the most common sources of verification are your recommenders. Univs tend to trust them a lot. Some univs grill you intensely on a particular topic if they feel you've faked it. i think its a lot about selling yourself. An admissions consultant told me they dont question your volunteer work claims...they just ask round-about questions on it during interviews and see if your face turns pale.

As for getting caught, i supose there is heavy penalty apart from being thrown out of the program. I've heard they cancel your visa or something. Not sure. But another thought came to my mind...now that my friend in US has worked for a coupla years at a top co, and gained valuable work ex, would it really matter if his degree was withdrawn? after a while, where you studied and your degree earned ceases to matter and only your work ex counts...just a thought!

At least in US, he would be thrown out of job and his degree rescinded. This thing would come on his SSN. Hence, his future in US is pretty much done after that. As far as outside US jobs are concerned, NYU alumni is available everywhere in the world. They would definitely come to know about it. Faking job experience is very serious crime. In India now a very extensive background check is done. IBM had thrown out a bunch of guys in India couple of years back. Intel did do recently. Chances of them founding that out is pretty rare but if they do find out then it would definitely have a bad impact. Ask your friend to keep his mouth shut about it and so do you.

[inblue]

Returning to the forum 3 days later and boy ! That profile thread post is all over the place now
Thats really an interesting discussion !

[Susie Derkins]

Originally Posted by znaamed

<snip>
@susie
Would you really recommend that a future applicant try out your
Method (I know you just did, but double checking)?

Yes.. I highly recommend it.

Originally Posted by znaamed

Did you go about the whole application process with this mindset?

I was idealistic when I started writing my essays... when I realised that my inights didn't go further than "So why did my boss react that way? Isn't he gettingt any?" or "Bastard! It's his inferiority complex that's screwing this up", I KNEW I had to cook up insights.

Originally Posted by znaamed

I really wanna know, coz I really really like Ross and I find it hard to believe
That anyone could have followed this approach and obtained an admit. BTW congrats
On the Ross admit!!

I love Ross too.. but I would not have gotten in with my real insights.. AND I had the common sense to know what insights adcomm wants to see.

[Susie Derkins]

Originally Posted by cracked-it

Znamed,
For a moment lets forget what is truth, what is right/wrong. Consider this - One has slogged to get an admit into business school and he/she succeeds. When people ask about the success factors - how many of us would have the courage to attribute at least a part of it to "make-up"? I admire Susie for this courage! Perhaps her views could be better recieved (and she could even be a PG moderator) if she doesn't keep a "I don't care" attitude and leave the grey areas grey but thats a different matter altogether.

Why, thank you crack. I mean... people here seem to think I lack principles, so this is nice for a change.

Originally Posted by cracked-it

The decision to use "Susie method" would be purely based on your value system.

Well.. most people haven't started writing their essays so they think what I did is sacrilege... once this admission cycle is over, I'll post one of my essays.. then they can see that the incident I've mentioned is really simple.. something that anyone with even 1 yr work exp can write... but the insights are rather mature... something only 1% of the applicants truly have.

I've met some REALLY successful people and when I ask them about their success/life, they can't talk beyond some really simnplistic things like 'you need to be a good listener'... that won't get one into B-school.