[j0]

Vivek

Might I just extend my gratitude to you for posting at such length, people on this forum hardly care to post anything constructive or of relevance pertaining to the bigger picture...so understand that I mean what I say.



I believe in freedom, in all forms, so let this country rise from the ashes of anarchy if need be.
Gandhi said something on the lines of what I said as an argument against the logic of partition
Basically he meant if chaos is to ensue because we think, feel, are different...so let it be...we will make it through in the end.


Hence I mentioned Bush and the Two-Party analogy. I am against it because the individual loses the opportunity to fight for his own interests when made to choose between two equal evils, which will be the case if we institutionalise the Two-Party system in India.

If you understand the basis of what is generically called idealistic capitalism, you will get what I am driving at. It is about giving the populace the greatest choice, the closest representative of their ideal and not letting their own genuine interests get diluted by being forced to subsist in a system that has already cut their legs.
If people wish to make a party to forward their own interest, I think they should be allowed to.
That is what we are looking to do here... it is all about self-interest, but instead of having a narrow ideological base we have a greater platform.
That is of Moral Re-armament of the Nation's polity.

But right now ideologies needn't be discussed...let us just share thoughts to gauge how our peers feel before we set out to put our words into action.
It is best to know the resources you have your disposal before you drawup battleplans.

We all share in this I should dare presume...we are all equally disgusted if not more.
We are all in this for our own self-interest, because as Aryak phrased it to me once "We are this nation...what is good for us is, is good for the nation".

Jo,if u are planning to do something in this aspect u can expect my whole hearted co-operation in it...

Vivek rest assured you've chosen to put your foot in a very sticky puddle... we will be calling on you soon enough.

This thread is of personal interest to me and a few others, so thank you very much for contributing.

Regards
Johan

[donB]

1)What they think about the present political scenario?

a] i for one am optimistic. Corruption is there, so is a greater willingness to shed govt power and red tapism. I disagree that the two party system is the best. You will have scenario where it wud stop being democracy and become an oligargy....Either one side or the other and if both are ineffective, what would the ppl do?

2)What they see to be the bane of it?

a] People's attitude. Forget the ppl....my attitude...how many times have i bitched about the system but been shy of fighting it. Choosing the easier option a 50 rupee bribe to the constable to the 400 rupee challan.

3) what they would personally do(not hava mein), ?

a] I do try to improve myself!! I do Vote. I do pay my taxes. I have stopped bribing constables!! I wont work abroad. I'll live in India, work in India. Do my lil bit to society. I hope that i wud listen to my conscience when the easier thing wud be to ignore it. It requires a good heart. Which i hope to cultivate!


4) the simple solutions for purportedly huge problems?

a] Make a beginning and the problem wudnt be so big.

5) Your feelings on activism...have you been part of anything? What length would you go to?

a] Very low opinion of publicity seeking foreign funded and politically motivated NGO's but for every such case there are a lot more brave men and women out there trying to make a difference. I dont know to what lengths i would go. If i knew i would be out there tryin to make a diff rather than type this msg.

6) Anything you might think that is relevant...causes that need backing, situations that need to be looked into, anything that holds your heart.

a] Simple things. Tune your vehicle properly. Dont waste water. Be kind and considerate to the people who work under you and encourage your family to do the same. Dont pay a bribe. Take the long way around. If all of us can do this...it wud be a better country to live in.... the pity is some wud say im asking too much.

[vivek2cool]

Well be it a 2 party or multi party system we do select our own leaders in a democracy ....So when we talk about having to choice between 2 equal evils,who are to blame other than people for supporting their candidature in the first place and letting them lead a country.
Im not against freedom to follow our own idealogies and having some representations for our own beleifs....Heck we can't call ourselves democratic if we object to this point....Anyways thats not my main concern...what matters most for me is the growth and development of our country and there is no second opinion on how this can be achieved between any ideology...ie through pure economic reasoning and common sense....I honestly believe that in the economic growth of our country lies the solution to all problems.I know a lot more goes into proper economic growth than just a huge increase in the GDP,like the equal sharing of the earnings between the rich and the poor...but still u cannot escape from the fact that this economic development over the last 15 years has improved the standard of living a large no: of people in our country....Yes there still exists a vast gulf between the rich and the poor but this system as it is now is willing to give the chance to the poor to strive for closing that gap.
We cannot hope for a utopian world where there are no differences between the rich and the poor,atleast in the recent future(For the distant future i do have some views ,but thats something to be a part of some other discussion).Ill give my reasoning behind this belief....Man has an intrinsic nature to want be better than his neighbour,can we deny that???However rich we are we want to be richer than the next guy...Its fuels our ambitions and our actions follow suit.
So the idea of everyone having equal wealth ,though pleasing to hear at first hearing,will be against our very basic nature to want to be better than the rest.If that were not the case,we would have remained ambition less and if there was no ambition there would be no progress in a society...

Well this topic has brought my inner thought to light and i would like to go on and on..but later on i guess..


Vivek out

[j0]

Don seriously, three things you said I found really heartening.

I do try to improve myself!! I do Vote. I do pay my taxes. I have stopped bribing constables!! I wont work abroad. I'll live in India, work in India. Do my lil bit to society. I hope that i wud listen to my conscience when the easier thing wud be to ignore it. It requires a good heart. Which i hope to cultivate!

Simple things. Tune your vehicle properly. Dont waste water. Be kind and considerate to the people who work under you and encourage your family to do the same. Dont pay a bribe. Take the long way around. If all of us can do this...it wud be a better country to live in.... the pity is some wud say im asking too much.

and most importantly

a] Make a beginning and the problem wudnt be so big.

Exactly my sentiments... that's what I would hope that all of us could do...all these lil things that Don made mention of.

Vivek, GDP growth is not exactly the best indicator of an amelioration in people's lives. I'd suggest you run through E.F. Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful". Not exactly a perfect book but it does have its interesting insights.
I think something that you made mention of yourself is the environment, which has to take a thrashing in this strive towards economic development.

I think activism starts at home, 5 years ago I decided I would quit using plastic and refuse it at the supermarket check-outs,I bugged my family and friends to do the same. It works.
That's why I love what Don said. Such things are very simple to implement in your own life, and slowly you can convert the few people around you.

When you do not submit to a corrupt system, how can the system stay corrupt?

Man has an intrinsic nature to want be better than his neighbour,can we deny that???However rich we are we want to be richer than the next guy...Its fuels our ambitions and our actions follow suit.

I deny it.

You'd have to be a very petty person to base your whole life's work on the existence of a competitor .
Since when did you start finding your own self-worth in another??
Whatever you achieve will only be as good as the next... never your best.

I have no inclination to be richer, smarter etc than the next person.
What I want to be, is able to live my life to my own potential and be free to do so.
That's one reason I have even taken an interest in this.

Vivek if you want I can give you my Yahoo id, where we can further discuss your thoughts further.Right now I want individual members to start posting answers to that lil questionaire, before we begin to discuss things in the open.

That's why I said let's leave the ideologies for later... there are lot of chinks in every line of thought that need some ironing out.

Whoever is interested can contact zango, thedragonreborn,estranged or me and we can setup a conference to hammer out our personal viewpoints.

I hope that will suffice for now.

Thank you and Keep posting people.

Johan

[DesiGuru]

Well I remember j0, you were trying to seed something like this in the pramod navalkar thread. Also remember me trying to dissuade you guys by trying to say try to make a lot of money first. Well I am not exactly dismissive of something like this. Let me clarify.

The youthful can succeed in any chosen field if they channelise all their energies to it. Though classifying and demarcating is not exactly my favorite thing you could divide a possible future path into 1. Business 2. Politics & Gorvernment 3. Social Work.
If you think, most of what a young man or woman can choose to do lies in these broad areas. Maybe Education/Law etc can be put in Business for the sake of simplification.

So firstly my views, if you are serious about one particular area your full focus should be that area. Me. I dont believe in direct Social Work. Smart Young people are wasted here. Its a good enough field for others, but these are my views and i wouldnt discourage anyone who is interested. The disinterest in social work is more because smart people cause more change in society by getting into business and politics than direct social work.

So now about politics and business. Repeating again, you cant do one and do the other part time. You could but then you would have a feeble chance of making a real change in any of the areas.
So depending on your thinking style and the vision of change you can bring about, you should go for business or politics.

Most of the thoughts and views put forth here about politics are interesting. But they steam of one fundamental problem. You cannot solve problems with the same level of thinking that created them. Indian politics is a goner in my view. Infact if the caste based demarcation and powerful muslim votewise 'majority' + the kashmir/pak problem do not destroy this country I will be astonished to say the least. My intuition tells me the possible things that can make a real change come down to

1. A Great Leader. No, there has not been a single great leader in india for the past 2000 years. Very good, Good, Excellent, Interesting leaders are everywhere. Gandhi is actually one of india's fundamental problems. He was a honourable man.

2. New thinking. Well shock me!

K

PS: Rest maybe when everyone is awake.

[andthentherewas1more]

Quite interesting responses and some maybe original but almost all of them smack of the the typical conservative middle class intellectual thinking(not that I am not that).

There always seems to be a clamoring for a change in the system and people seem to think that a change in the system wud be a solution to the problem. But, in my opinion there is a flaw in the argument since the way the system is run depends on those who run it rather than the type of system(this is not to deny that for particular situations some systems are better than others). So even if we have a new system in place it won't be long before even that detoriates and lead to corruption. We seem to find ways to corrupt every system in one way or the other. The politicians we have are a reflection of the society and as someone earlier has pointed out we deserve it b'coz of our 'chalta hai' attitucde.
Change can come only through transformation of the people(how is the big question).
Education (in the present form) is not the answer since it seems to be corrupting rather than edify. Proof: how many of us have seen our classmates copy(cheat) during internal tests, main exams , practicals and yeah mba entrances. This is where corruption starts, the desire to get things done easily without the pain of going through the proper procedure. It is the bribe-giver who is as much to be blamed as the taker.


And as far as going into social service being for the inferior brains I disagree since that it wud deprive the nation of real progress. Since the country or society can only be as good as the worst(poorest, most downtrodden) in the society and to truly solve the problem wud require brains and comittment. To say that smart young people are wasted here is wrong . Actually one can argue that it wud make them smarter and better in the long run.(but we dont seem to think in the long run nowadays)

. Smart Young people are wasted here. Its a good enough field for others, but these are my views and i wouldnt discourage anyone who is interested. The disinterest in social work is more because smart people cause more change in society by getting into business and politics than direct social work.

PS I have a feeling that I have gone off the track

[zango]

As Vivek put it - "Actions still speak louder than words.."
This sentiment was expressed by DG, j0, and andthentherewas1more - maybe in not the same way - but that's what they meant. What is the idea - what are we planning to do? how are we going to achieve it.

Let me not be a pretender - I don't have an action plan for you. I just have an idea of a better India. I know what I want to achieve. How we do it - we have to learn. We are a young nation. We have a long long history - but our politics is still young. Our country is however loaded by a longer torturous past which still weighs down upon her people.

What I want from people posting here - read, learn, about politics in other developed countries. We need to figure out what we can(have to) do to
1) form a political party
2) how to get people together. This involves us getting together in the first place.

There will be a time for other things - our action plan, our ideologies (you are going to present them to us in part, by answering the questionnaire by j0). But, I would like to learn how to achieve what we want.

For those of you who are interested, get started. Now is the time to change. Change what you don't like to the way you would like it to be. Take donB's case. Learn. Start NOW!

[donB]

We dont need a conference. We dont need no political party. We dont need any organisation or complication.

I have a fire in my belly. I am ambitious. I want to achieve things in life. No I dont want a big bungalow and a Merc. I wud love but thats not what i want. Neither do i want to do social work all my life. I want to achieve in the corporate world. But Im gonna do that on my terms. I shall not bend nor brook anything that affects my conscience. But Im afraid that I will bend because I will find myself isolated. Because the people around me will ask me to think of my family and its future. They would want me to conform to society. They would tell me im an ordinary middle class man and cannot change society nor fight the system.

All I would like to know is that there are men like me out there going for their dreams with the same sense of morality. That would give me a purpose and reason that we are all small parts of the Big Plan for a better future for our society and our country. Its nothing ... just live your life and go for your dreams. Dont sell your soul for it. Coz when im in a dilemma if i should...at least i would be reminded that im not the only fighting it out.

[zango]

Originally Posted by donB

We dont need a conference. We dont need no political party. We dont need any organisation or complication.

Why don't we? Do you think the system will reform itself - do you think your input to the country will be restricted to yourself and that is going to serve the purpose? I would like to believe so - but i don't think it is going to work out in this fashion.

Originally Posted by donB

I have a fire in my belly. I am ambitious. I want to achieve things in life. No I dont want a big bungalow and a Merc. I wud love but thats not what i want. Neither do i want to do social work all my life. I want to achieve in the corporate world. But Im gonna do that on my terms. I shall not bend nor brook anything that affects my conscience. But Im afraid that I will bend because I will find myself isolated. Because the people around me will ask me to think of my family and its future. They would want me to conform to society. They would tell me im an ordinary middle class man and cannot change society nor fight the system.

All I would like to know is that there are men like me out there going for their dreams with the same sense of morality. That would give me a purpose and reason that we are all small parts of the Big Plan for a better future for our society and our country. Its nothing ... just live your life and go for your dreams. Dont sell your soul for it. Coz when im in a dilemma if i should...at least i would be reminded that im not the only fighting it out.

yes, there are people like you out there. I can speak for myself. But then, there are certain things in the system which are wrong - where you have to break the rules to be right - what do you do then? Do you want the rules to change or do you live by the rules?

[umpire]

)What they think about the present political scenario?
horrible if i may say so... specially with the events that hv recently taken place... I believe we hv sum outstanding leaders in almost all political parties(barring a few), If the current political scenario is described by any1 as even "satisfactory" it is these leaders who r making him or her say so..


2)What they see to be the bane of it?
I firmly believe it is the "sleepy middle class". nd i am very much part of it.. It is almost visible to all of us what kinda problems( political, socal nd economical) is our country facing.. There is "needless boasting" that the media keeps barking every now & then..
I think we all r a part of our usual Hindi line " ye aaisa hai wo waisa hai"


3) what they would personally do(not hava mein), ?

I m ready to go to any extent to b a part of sumthin that zango was referring to.
But i already hv heard abt a few programs i.e bharat uday mission(IIT, kanpur) which hasn't yet started and looks immature.. I also hv heard abt YPRI( started by Kulkarni( formerly in PMO), also secretary to Mr Advani, who intended to form a new political party with all the so called engineers and MBA's in it. To my info, it hasn't yet kicked off with no assistence and support around..

I think the idea of starting sum thing this big is really gr8, but to sustain it needs a lot of guts and passion, I think i hv it...



4) the simple solutions for purportedly huge problems?

Population, ya it may really seem as if what is new in stating such a problem which is around for yrs, but i was dyin to post it sumwhere, where i can unearth the CII-FICCI "seminar boasters" to sum hard reality...

The boaster often cited-- we hv 60 % of population under the age of 25..
The reality- more than 80% of which lives in villages, more than 70% of which is uneducated.
A huge % of India is actually this


http://www.pagalguy.com/index.php?ca...2_articleid=61




which these people forget to mention abt.

Bottomline-- All problems today r associated with this problem of Population, we hv to curb it at any cost by any means, b it jailin people who don't abide..

5) Your feelings on activism...have you been part of anything? What length would you go to?

I think i rather complete my education first and hv my say on it, not that i am not passionate and sacrificing(very imp word in context to this thread) but its better for every1 to hv safer options primarily...

6) Anything you might think that is relevant...causes that need backing, situations that need to be looked into, anything that holds your heart.

anything that holds my heart-- why the hell i am learning a foreign lang? why the hell i am doin an MBA, why the hell i don't join politics? why the hell i don't join an NGO? just why the hell.....
its the pity "survival"

regards