Has The Concept Of God Become Defunct Now?

[Oxymoron]

HAS THE CONCEPT OF GOD BECOME DEFUNCT NOW?
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Let me at the outset say that this is no way out to hurt the sentiments of others as I do realize that any talk abt "God" is indeed quite a touchy one! So this is purely my opinion based on my own little research and NOT expecting you to endorse it or dispute it...but any constructive criticism aptly substantiated is more than welcome!

What prompted me to write this?

"Thou Shalt Seek The Truth and the Truth Shall Set You Free"..as is apparent I am trying hard to come out of the shackles to be "free"! The concept of GOD has fascinated me from the past three years ever since the demise of my friend...the question that kept discommoding me were,
1. Why was GOD invented?
2. With the advancement of Science and Technology has HIS relevance becoming less and less significant or is it vice versa?

Also the recent discovery of a "Gene" for "GOD" (Source: 'The Hindu' a fortnight back) only went to further my conviction...the scientists claimed that they could create the hallucinations or "visions" as experienced by the Prophets and Messengers of God by appropriate electromagnetic signals.....in fact in any of the original holy books there is no concrete evidence for the presence (or of course absence) of GOD...most of the verses are O2i( Open To interpretations)

As Carl Sagan appositely wrote," Absence of evidence does not necessarily imply evidence of absence". Touché! But still one can't help but feel that GOD exists only in one's mind...after all doesn't everything depend only on one's mind in the end?

I guess all those theists out there would agree that if at all God exists HE (SHE?IT?) must be a single entity or in the other words acquiesce on mono-theism......isn't religion a matter of nurture rather than one's nature? Wouldn't it be logically correct to presume that a Christian if born in a Hindu family would swear by Shiva as he does by Jesus now? So the concept of religion is immaterial and mundane now...for it doesn't matter whether one follows Christianity, Islam or Hinduism...the moot point is WHY should we follow? if we notice the basic tenets of all religions advocate the same thing...a blemish less life, care for the other living things, loyalty to work and adherence to rules....forget all the rest of jingoism which are there because of the ppl at the helm and NOT due to the religion itself! And really to advocate all the aforementioned points is
GOD necessary? if not WHY WAS GOD invented? just to sustain something called "hope" and "optimism" in man?

My point is simple...if the concept of GOD is in only man's mind then if one is able to conquer one's mind doesn't the concept of GOD become redundant then? How can you ask your mind to believe in something which your mind knows doesn't exist? Doesn't this contradict the concept of omnipresence of GOD? Or am I missing something here? Just in passing I remember asking my uncle whether he believed in GOD and he answered that,"
"I thought I was an atheist until I realized that I was God!!!" He further expostulated that
"Atheism was a higher form of theism"! in Fact Ramakrishna Paramahamsa also said this.


In pursuance of this topic I went to different temples and churches ( I could go into only one mosque) and discretely asked the "purohits" whether THEY Believed in GOD! Believe me the answers were astounding! Of the 15 temples I visited 12 agreed that they did it only as a profession and
two ppl swore by God and even claimed to have visions of Him and having talked to Him and well one threw me out of the temple! I spoke to 12 Church "Fathers" and these churches comprised of different sects in Christianity ( Protestants, Catholics and further divisions among them!) and the response by now was predictable! 7 of them after a lot of persuasion agreed that they did it only for social service (?) and was more of a family tradition(!!!)....5 of them swore by Him....thank GOD (for want of a better phrase!) no one threw me out here! Unfortunately I couldn't talk to the priests of other religions...I might require some help in this regard from you ppl! anyone willing to pick up the gauntlet?

Actually there's more...but I realize it would be futile to condense the arguments for a topic of such immense significance into so short a space.....and oh yes I DID NOT have any preconceived notions when I met these priests...so my interpretations are assuredly unbiased and am stating "as is"! Guess as of now that's it from me...I wonder what you fine ppl out there think abt this?

Regards,

An Iconoclast Who Dared To Be Different!

[uRmad]

hi enigma....... a good post pal...let's c how all of us feel on this matter...

HAS THE CONCEPT OF GOD BECOME DEFUNCT NOW?

a good question.....good because the answer to it depends on what your interpretation of god is.....if u interpret god as something/someone up there to grant our wishes or to punish us for our misdemeanours, then that *god* quite exists according to our moods......we feel happy...feel rewarded....we immediately thank god.....yep....we do swear by atheism when we r low, down and out....but such categories of ppl, irrespective of however hypocritic they may sound, are actually strong believers in the notion of god being someone/something above us...

then there is a second class of ppl that believe god is nothing but a shape that we choose to give to our hope and faith......to them god exists for the sole reason that they need to give a form towards their beliefs and to add to their conviction that whatever they do, their *god* is with them.....

then there is a third class of ppl to whom *god* matters nothing in the context of the above two classes..... they are ppl with strong convictions and beliefs.... they are the kind that don't allow superficial stuff such as luck, hope and the like to interfere with their work..... they believe in doing things perfectly so there is no scope for luck to play truant.....

for the first two categories, god has never been and will never be defunct.... for the third kind..... some say they are the strongest believers in god as they are the ones to have achieved enlightenment...... if i am not mistaken, isn't that what the vedas n other holy scriptures preach...... idol-worship is for the sole reason that ppl need to give a form to their hope...and when they have conquered their fears of joy and sorrow, they are said to have achieved nirvana..... so in a twisted way, preachers also claim atheists and agnostics to be one of the strongest believers of god.....

and regarding science n tech making god irrelevant....well...imho, it is with the advent of innovations such as the web, or scientific experiments like cloning, that more and more ppl are taking to religion.....they badly want to get the comforting feeling that someone/something somewhere is in charge of things rather than a mad scientist with a top-class lab...

is GOD necessary? if not WHY WAS GOD invented? just to sustain something called "hope" and "optimism" in man?

my personal beliefs, have, well .....ranged from a strong belief in god to atheism to agnosticism.....but as i've said before....guess that puts me in the class of ppl that believe that there is someone/something up there (where)......

just my 0.02.......

Cheers

[ashwin]

An overwhelming majority of people across the world believe in "God", or a supreme being or whatchamaycallit; this shows how...insecure..we as humans are. Most people "believe" for the only reason that they've been taught , by their family, by society, whatever, to believe....and these people....well I can't say I have the utmost respect for these kind of people...Religion is supposed to be intensely personal: labelling it ("God","Jesus","Shiva") only makes it another meaningless, community-enforced stereotype....

[gnkumar_guru]

Originally Posted by voice_of_enigma

An Iconoclast Who Dared To Be Different!

Sorry to butt in like this!! but Is'nt an iconoclast in himself someone who is different and sneering at tradition and in being so is daring

So! is not the above statement redundant!

ok.... let me extend the same to something we are discussing-

Which is more astounding -- "the dicovery of a gene for God" or "the existance of such a gene in itself" ?




GG

[santosh]

is GOD necessary? if not WHY WAS GOD invented? just to sustain something called "hope" and "optimism" in man?

Invention of god is made to show the lazyness of human being.

I have been told by my math professor... that 0 in itself is not a number but a concept just like infenity and he went on explaining the concept of 0 giving us logic that 0 was invented to fill the devide and a middle point between 1 and -1.

Any way he said one good thing... and that was... that most of the invention happens because of lazyness

May be the concept of god was invented because we human were very lazy and we needed some figure to fear from.

In one of the hospital i read one sign.... which read something like... god is someone with whom you should fear from. I guess god is not some one with whom you should fear from.... but he is the one whom you should look towards when you are in desphair.

Cheers
Santosh

[shub001]

I think the idea of GOD was born so that happenings in and around the world which did not have any satisfactory answers could be explained.
A secondary reason was to inculcate a fear of punishment for doing something wrong/bad(god is watching concept).

Earlier GOD made earth(sun) go round, now it is gravity.
Earlier GOD provided rain, now it is water cycle.

But no matter how far science has progressed, I dont think anyone of you believes that all the phenomena around us can be explained.

For ex soul: what makes a person alive one moment and dead the other, I know you can give biological answers but believe me if you argue for long you will be lost for answers and so will be any doctor.
What makes your mother (or anyone for that matter) give you a phone call the day you remember (miss) the person so much.

(if science can prove that electromagnetic waves travel from my mind to that persons mind, then my god will have one less thing to manage)
What my point is I will keep on believing in god as long as all my questions are not answered by science.
GOD to me is shapeless, a superpower who controls everything that is not under control of something I know (or exists).
May be my god is what other people call chance. But that is good enough for me.
When I have been good in my life and good things happen to me, people might say it is because of chance, I will say yeah it is because of chance, but that chance was assured by what I did. But I wouldn't like to do anything good because it would assure that chance (or because GOD is watching) I will do that because that gives me more peace than doing something bad which might give me outer pleasure. If god is watching or if that assures chance it is a bonus.

So for me( and everyone else I think) the secondary reason does not exist.

I think every reason would fall under the first reason I mentioned.
if you think god is someone to look upto when you are in despair, then you will only look upto him(her,it) when you believe that he controls atleast one aspect of your problem, and that will be because it has not been proved that he does not control that aspect of your problem, has it been proved than you would be looking up to the one who was controlling that aspect.

[gnkumar_guru]

sorry about the post above, some server problem I guess, could not post the whole argument... and only the irrelevant part could make it

Originally Posted by voice_of_enigma

An Iconoclast Who Dared To Be Different!

Sorry to butt in like this!! but Is'nt an iconoclast in himself someone who is different and sneering at tradition and in

being so is daring

So! is not the above statement redundant!

ok.... let me extend the same to something we are discussing-

Which is more astounding -- "the 'dicovery' of a gene for God" or "the existence of such a gene in itself" ? If it is the

'discovery' how do u explain the gene; if it is the gene - would u label it the "quirk of nature", "creativity of a superior

being", "fantasy" aka GOD ?


Every "discovery" in science/technology can be counted as path of dicovering the panoply of wonders lined up. why not?

"...if the concept of GOD is in only man's mind then if one is able to conquer one's mind doesn't the concept of GOD become

redundant then"

On a line where, every action, every motion, every thought; every will is what ur mind dictates. Your mind is hence what

makes you. I am sure you would agree with this. When u 'will' to conquer your mind is it a dictation of your mind or you?
When you conquer your mind, it is courtesy - ur mind. UR MIND HAS CONQUERED UR MIND. confusing?

question: if there is nothing of 'you' outside ur mind, who are 'you'? your mind is where everything begins and ends in you -
IS there a limit, definition, boundary of mind. Do you see 'mind'? how do believe in it? aka GOD


Religion is a futile attempt of man in defining a phenomenon beyond mortal grasp, but a path of recogonizing his existence. I

agree it has been expounded in a manner that betrays its true sense. And it is true that we do have a differnt "label" for

HIM in different parts, the same way as Unser, Zace, Tamaro, Qualis are all the same .. (what a parallel huh ?)



IS truth what the most support? Is truth that rallies the most hands? Is the search in temples and mosques a question of

rallying support for a sense of -"I am not alone" -- security in numbers? Is a quest of a truth one that can garness maximum

numbers? [on similar lines -- less pertinent but a more conceivable question to our minds would be --- was the US rally for

"attack on Iraq for the freedom of Iraq" a truth? Did it convince us of the "Truth" that US wants to attack Iraq for the

Iraqi freedom?]

One final question, on an impersonal stand off and with all due respect, How is it that this question " Is there a God"

become most pertinent with unpleasant episodes in life? would we ever remember Him if everything were rosy? Or is

unpleasantness an introduction of the supreme power in instigating a search .....?

"....until I realized that I was God"
I would probably paraphrase it to ---- "....until I realized I was an extension of God"


GG


P.s On a second reading this note touched me as inflamatory and more of a preaching. Rather, I wished to argue and forward

points in support of an opinion , more so on a constructive note. I apologise, if it makes for a touchy reading. Any inputs

on my mistakes is ofcourse appreciated.

[Oxymoron]

Mmm….some pretty interesting points have been put up so far! But why do I have this feeling that whenever the word “God” is mentioned we tend to take a middle path rather than call a spade a spade! Or is it as easy as that? Sometimes I wonder. If God really exists why can’t HE come out in the open and say,” Here I Am” like Bryan Adams! Why is it that “God” ( with a physical form) is something like a ghost which everyone has heard abt but has never seen themselves………another thing I am interested in is the theistic views of Charles Darwin! If he is a believer then doesn’t his work and theory go down the drain? But actually when weighing the pros and cons is it prudent enough to dismiss theism as balderdash when it is something which has been extant from time immemorial??

uRmad:
I just wondered whether you feel it is more “safer” to be an agnostic nowadays than be an atheist! It is really ironic that nowadays an “agnostic” is someone who is considered after the truth….he is exalted….a “theist” is considered part of the coterie but “God” only help you if you say you are an atheist! You become suddenly a paraiah..a persona non-grata…oh I know. I experienced it!
A strong belief in God to Atheism to agnosticism to..What next? Back to belief again? Isn’t it more like a circle which every one of us goes thro’? I wonder….

Ashwin:
Well Ashwin how exactly do you define your concept of religion when you say it is personal? What is religion anyway? Is it something which is static or dynamic depending on the present social and emotional scenario? I wonder…

Gnkumar_guru:
Mea Culpa! “An Iconoclast Who Dared To Be Different!”…..Guess Iconoclast would have alone sufficed as you pointed out….but hey am I not supposed to be an “iconoclast”? So Will indulge in use of the superfluous words! But yes you did raise some pertinent points but the thing is most of them were open to interpretations! I was more interested in the discovery of gene whereas you were more interested what/who facilitated the discovery! Why now? Where was God all along? Does God decided to make his presence(Or rather his gene!) known just when humans were making amazing scientific progress? Just when The Human Genome Project was nearly being completed? Does that mean our life is preordained? Does that make our life any more interesting? Is it the case of “Ours Not To Question Why But To Do And Die”?
Who Is John Galt?<shrugs>

“My mind has conquered my Mind”..that is exactly the paradox which I am trying to come to terms with! How long could “I” fool my mind abt a seemingly non-existent supernatural thing just to sustain my optimism? When you view everything with a third person perspective, even your own life you realize the futility of everything…..there are all more like an illusion….my oh my! I am sounding more like Richard Bach now!
And well is there anything called “Absolute Truth”? mean to say would you say that the 2*1=2 always? Obviously no! it depends on the number system,the symbols I use and various other stuff….so what is “Truth” then? Isn’t “Truth” and “Falsehood” more of a matter of perception than reality? Isn’t it “true” that two ppl can look at the samething and seemingly interpret different things? Oh well..<shrugs> Confusion gets worse confounded!

mm..i liked the part…”……until I realized that I was an extension of God”! But If I am what I am And I don’t Believe in God then where is my premise?

Shub001:
Well you seem to have taken the safer stance of believing in God UNTIL SCIENCE DISPROVES IT..but honestly man has been on earth for more than 10000 yrs and any real progress in science has been made only in the last 150 yrs or so and more at an amazing pace only in the last 50 yrs! So is it fair to compare the Science and Theistic view which are impregnated in man from time immemorial so soon….20,30 ,40 years hence who knows…ur questions might be answered by science! Mm..what do you think? That both divinity and science can co-exist?

I wish I could be more like Hank Rearden or Howard Roark not caring a damn abt society and involve myself in a job with passion and not pursue the truth which itself is not clearly defined which seemingly are more perplexing than it actually is….The truth is out there eh? If only they don’t camouflage it ! It’s more like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat which does not exist!!!! (ok ok…..I “borrowed” this from someone’s signature…)

Regards,
Girish…!

[uRmad]

But why do I have this feeling that whenever the word “God” is mentioned we tend to take a middle path rather than call a spade a spade!

guess its the same reason why not many are able to wish away god, howsoever they feel towards it/her/him.....and mebbe not many, me included, do not want to end up on the wrong side of god, if ever there was one..... but come to think of it, i don't think it is that easy a thing to either dismiss off or completely submit to the existence of god.... mebbe its something that has somewhere, at some point of time, ingrained into our thinking process ...and no, i am not talking of god as espoused by the right-wing...but rather of the kind that just wont take on a god that they have never seen....

uRmad:
I just wondered whether you feel it is more “safer” to be an agnostic nowadays than be an atheist!

well.....more than a feeling of safety in being an agnostic, or an atheist, i think for me it has been based more on what i'd gone thro' over the years.....but like i said, the concept of god is probably more ingrained into my head than i probably wished it were...... or hoped it were..... but then thats secondary...... as long as i continue to strongly feel, somewhere inside, that god is always there, mebbe its tuf for me to give an objective approach to this issue......

A strong belief in God to Atheism to agnosticism to..What next? Back to belief again? Isn’t it more like a circle which every one of us goes thro’? I wonder

u bet....i've seen a lot of other ppl that have also felt in a similar manner.....its more a function of their present emotional and personal situation that decides their beliefs/dis-beliefs rather than any pre-conceived notion that requires them to deny the existence of god........

When you view everything with a third person perspective, even your own life you realize the futility of everything

there u go again.....isn't that what some, me included, wud say a complete believer in god, rather than the dis-believer that u c urself as....a person who has been thro that cycle and then starts viewing all things future in the light of what he has experienced over the past and at various stages of his beliefs/dis-beliefs....

shall catch up later....in a hurry right now.....

Cheers

[megha]

There are instincts that causes a person to do things. And what are instincts? They havent been explained so far. So thinking that God exists or not is totally based on instincts and belief. Probably God itself is a belief. It is YOU who thinks that doing a certain thing is punishable.

If God really exists why can’t HE come out in the open and say,” Here I Am” like Bryan Adams!

I liked the quote listed above...Well probably God isnt a great singer like Bryan Adams...
On a serious note, maybe God does have different ways of singing those words... and that is what we call instincts.