[John_Galt]

@Mike:Totally agree with you on King Booker.Just one look at the Oscar winning expression on his face as he enters the ring makes me laugh like hell.I mean what he portrays is a perfect balance of his alleged class and his facade of his allged class.I mean if you look at Trips,the classy expression comes off naturaly.In Booker's case,he pretends to be royal and at the same time makes it prefectly clear through his expressions that he's a jack*** posing as a king.And then Regal puts the icing on the cake by chanting"All hail King Booker".

BTW,JBL's doing pretty fine as an announcer too.He's doing what Jerry Lawler does in RAW:generating heat.If you've noticed how he stands up as Booker enters and announces how all peepz are witnessing "royalty",you've witnessed royalty in an announcer mate

Ps:Moi an expert pagal now

[arjwiz]

I didn't notice there were so many true wrestling fans here on PG, rather, anywhere in India for that matter! You find all sorts of people here!

I wish you guys had joined IMW - the International Managers of Wrestling, a concept I had created used at another forum (but long gone now). It's similar to an efed, but its also very different from an efed.

I like this thread, QQAD really gets me nervous.

I'll be a regular here too, just start off by naming my favourite (current) wrestlers - Kennedy, Angle, Booker, Benoit, HHH. The best ever? The Excellence of Execution - Bret Hart!

P.S. - I've been watching this shiznit for 15 years myself!

[John_Galt]

@arjwiz:Welcome to the club mate!!And could you elaborate on IMW??Perhaps it could be a useful angle to be added onto this thread.

@Mike,Runy:Guys........post maro firse yar...........this thread is missing you!!

[MvB ACM No9]

Oh yeah, JBL owns in colour commentary. And the entry of the KC is amazing, specially with JBL also joining in. Positively love that.

Arjwiz: Bret was a great mat wrestler. Not too sure about his even being in the top 10 of the 'best ever' though. He may be your favourite, but in terms of pro-wrestling, there are far too many others who have done so much more. I'd put HBK way above Bret too on that best-ever list. My take, without any personal biases:

1. Stone Cold Steve Austin (Saved pro-wrestling from disaster and became the most over wrestler ever. I don't think anyone will ever match the phenomenon that was SCSA.)
2. Hulk Hogan (Let's face it. He made the damn thing global)
=2 Andre the Giant (He made Hulk. Hulk made pro-wrestling global. You make the call)
4. Ric Flair (Put over so much talent. In the AWA and the NWA, as a heel, Flair was the man pulling in the crowds coz they hated him so much. Great.)
5. Mick Foley (Perhaps the best ever at promos. And how much talent does this man put over? When you think of it, I can't even remember the last time he won a match, let alone a feud and yet, he remains an icon and beating him puts every wrestler into the bigtime immediately. From Trips to Orton to Edge, there is noone that Foley hasn't put over massively.)
6. Randy Savage (Pity about his problems with Vince and Hogan, but this man was so over. You could see that in WCW.)
7. Ricky Steamboat
8. HHH
9. HBK (When Bret left, with WWE in the doldrums and the new generation yet to be built, the man who was seen as a no-draw, carried the company, refusing to switch to WCW and helped build the legend that was to be SCSA...apart from creating the joint-most over faction ever - DX - joint with nWo which was a part of the Kliq and therefore a twin anyway. Even now, HBK brings so much to RAW. True greatness there.)
10. The Rock (Layeth the Smacketh Down. Would have been way above...around 4/5 actually, if he had not left so early. Then again, so would Chris Jericho probably had he been given the right push which would have ensured his staying far longer...)

[arjwiz]

^^ That's probably a great list, though I wouldn't have HHH or Andre in there. Taker, Bret, Billy Graham would all be up there. Then again, our definitions of "best" or "favourite" may differ.

I think you're focussing on who's the most influention star in terms of a marketing essence. In which case, pro-wrestling wouldn't be on world-wide TV today had it not been for Vince McMahon Jr. And if you're considering marketing value in an Indian context, then Bret, Taker, Yokozuna, Diesel, Cena and even Khali would take the places of legends like Steamboat, Foley or Flair.

By the way, if anyone made Hulk, it was Vince. If you had to pick a wrestler, it would be Piper and The Iron Sheikh.

Anyway, IMW was a concept I created on another forum wherein people signed up and picked a wrestler. 2 teams were formed - RAW and SD (not very creative, lol), and people had 1 week to come up with a "card" (which later became more detailed, and included the entire show - promos, matches, ads etc). Marketing concepts also came into play. It was so much fun. It built teamwork and creativity, as well as language and writing skills.

But it turned out to be too hectic, both from a management point of view and from the "wrestlers'" point of view. So I look at it as a huge success, but a concept that broke from the seams because the quality was improving day by day, but the members weren't coming in.

[John_Galt]

@Mike:Very balanced list overall.But some things here:
I don't exactly agree with Randy Savage being so high up there.Even Andre for that matter does'nt exactly look like no 2 material to me.I'll start with the latter.

Ok I'll unequivocally state that my perception here is not completely unbiased.I've been a bodybuilder for 13 years and hence a well framed athelete will always find more favour with me than an outa shape fatty.If that's being a Mark,then yup,I am a Mark.

In that regard,Andre never really excited me.I mean the guy had little in ring movement and hell,at one stage he could barely walk coz his knees gave in to his massive frame.I totally agree that he along with Hulk made wrestling global.But you see,those were days when headlocks could end matches!!As a brand promoter,I'd say he may be put even at the top slot along with Hulk.But I watch wrestling for people with athletic ability.What then??I represent a customer segment too.Infact I've been in touch with dozens of bodybuilders who are smarks in every other sense,but who would always prefer watching Batista to Naitch,Foley or HBK for that matter.

As for Savage,he was over,I agree.But i don't hink he was as over as to find himself at the 6th spot of the all time greatest list.I mean Jimmy Snuka,The Road Warriors or Jake The Snake were also as over with the crowd as Savage.Where do we put them now??

As for Stone Cold being an unparalleled phenomenon,there was a man who drew crowds even better.He made crowds of 75k strengths rise to their feet.If not for his animosity with Vince,we would have never witnessed the Stone Cold phenomenon,coz it would'nt have been needed.This man was The Ultimate Warrior. I watched the cd"The self destruction of The Ultimate Warrior" and could'nt really conclude as to who really destroyed him.Ok,he was tested positive for steroids,but hell,as I've stated earlier in this thread,you never become any bigger than Cena without steroids.That way,Batista,Lashley and co. must have been in trouble by now,given that the drug policy is not infact a farce enforced to deal with rebelious employees.Further,the CD contains many interviews where Warrior is alleged to be highly unprofessional and stubborn.But one wonders:This is Vince's side of the story,and maybe we do have a strong opposite side to it.What I conclude here is that while Warrior did do suicidal things,WWE on its part has screwed up somewhere as well.

Speaking of the 75k crowd,I have a query here.In the good old days,one saw 50-75 k people turn up at paperviews.Now that number has become a fourth of that.What signal does it give you??Are the tickets priced way too up as well to take care of revenues??

[MvB ACM No9]

Originally Posted by arjwiz

^^ That's probably a great list, though I wouldn't have HHH or Andre in there. Taker, Bret, Billy Graham would all be up there. Then again, our definitions of "best" or "favourite" may differ.

I think you're focussing on who's the most influention star in terms of a marketing essence. In which case, pro-wrestling wouldn't be on world-wide TV today had it not been for Vince McMahon Jr. And if you're considering marketing value in an Indian context, then Bret, Taker, Yokozuna, Diesel, Cena and even Khali would take the places of legends like Steamboat, Foley or Flair.

By the way, if anyone made Hulk, it was Vince. If you had to pick a wrestler, it would be Piper and The Iron Sheikh.

I have not actually gone with favourites. I happen to detest Hulk intensely, but what I have evaluated on is sheert impact on the business. Again, taking an Indian perspective is nonsense because India is among the least important markets that WWE would look upon. Sure, if some wrestler broke onto the scene and made India a huge commercial market, he would be a legend, but pushing Bret or 'taker up there because they are popular in India and pushed a few fake tees here makes no sense.

Bret was one of the lowest drawing champions in history. His reign coincided with the near-collapse of the WWE. It took D-X, SCSA and the Rock to revive its fortunes. That's why I'd never have him up there. Piper never drew either as the ME man. Iron Sheikh, well, in a toss-up between him and Dwayne Johnson, well, you make the call. As you can see, I think it is DJ who had the bigger and more lasting impact. Damn he is still so over!!!

Ultimately, it is sports entertainment and it's a business more than a sport. So, one has to consider drawing power, merch-pushing as well as ring skills and mic skills when deciding...

As for Trips, after Dwayne and Austin left, he was the only main-eventer on the scene for a while who could draw. He is without doubt one of the best heels that wrestling has ever seen. He is also a part of the most popular faction ever...the Kliq. And DX of course. So, I think it's a no-brainer. Through his career, even as the top heel, his merch was selling like crazy. I can't see a Bret even come near him in terms of status.

Bret ultimately gained more fame through the Screwjob than anything else. I think that says it all...

BTW, on a totally different note, there is a fake SS poster doing the rounds. Well, nobody knows for sure it's a fake, but the odds are that it is. It shows the nWo logo with a green DX spray-painted over it...one wonders what it means if it is indeed true, coz Nash is on a quasi-contract with TNA and Hogan is hardly likely to want to turn heel! Hall is also not wrestling at the mo...

I wonder though...coz the Kliq remains intact and they always love being in the ring together...damn! They would put on a Hell of a show in their twilight years too, I guess... Ah well...it's probably a fake :(

- Darth M

[siddhesh_j]

Hey wrestling experts - all this talk of wrestlers being crowd pullers is fine ...but wht about the Divas yaar ... they are gr8 eye candy for most of the crowd ...like it or not but divas like torrie and trish and sablebomb have pulled in biggest crowds esp at main events with their bare all matches !! and hell I am a fan of diva matches -- wrestling u may get bored of - but diva matches ... no chance !!!

[MvB ACM No9]

A few points in response:

1. Hulk: Vincent Kennedy McMahon did not make Hulk. Hulk made Vince. Hulk was massively huge and Vince knew that he was the ticket to the big-time. That was the beginning...

2. Andre: If not for Andre, Hulk would never have become the legend he did. Andre today would be nothing more than a Khali perhaps (no, not that bad actually) but in that day, as THE freak, he was THE draw. When he put over Hulk at WM, Hulkamania began. Most smarks debate about whether Andre was greater for the business or Hulk. I rest my case.

3. Ultimate Warrior: Warrior was massively on steroids as was the rest of the roster when the WWF begain the crackdown. He refused to budge however. But that was a smaller problem. The bigger issue came up with his backstage antics. He would refuse to job most of the time and even when he did, it would not be clean. Also, he was a terrible no-seller. I remember him sitting up immediately after a Pedigree. That match almost buried Trips. Warrior was terrible behind the scenes. Sure, VKM has made some bad calls, but I have yet to hear anyone criticize his treatment of Warrior. If anything, he gave UW more than he deserved.

4. Stone Cold: Nobody in the history of wrestling has drawn or sold more than SCSA and That's the bottomline, coz Stone Cold said so.


5. Arenas are no longer as full as the Attitude Era. Sure, that was a spike in wrestling viewing when everybody was watching. The Monday Night Wars were on, new limits were being found, boundaries had been pushed and the smarks were running havoc. Creative was at its best and everything just clicked. Then, post that era, viewing has returned to normal levels in terms of arena goers. Most now watch the Pay-per-views on TV based on the card and wrestling is no longer as racy as it was. Noting to do with prices trust me...

6. Divas: You may not believe this, but the Diva section is a no-draw barring Mickie at the moment. The rest are terrible and can't wrestle. As for baring all, let's face it, there are plenty other places to watch that stuff. If you watch a Diva match these days, there is no heat at all in the crowds. They sound so dead...actually they don't sound at all...until Mickie hits the ring

Cheers!
- Darth M

[John_Galt]

@Mike:Hmm.....I have nothing against Andre as such and I agree to the fact that he was the one kickstarting Hulkamania.But my take on him,and its my personal take,that I don't proclaim as THE final word,is that maybe he could have given more to spectators by actually being better with his in-ring skills.Maybe it was the first time that the character of a 7 foot giant was put forth,and that's why he was given a limited moveset.But then,the fact that he was'nt exactly athletic is well known.

Here again,one point crops up that we discussed earlier.You then said that a wrestler's moveset is determined by his character.Agreed,but not fully.I can understand that Kane could have very well used the powebomb,but it would've looked out of place with him,and hence he stuck with the chokeslam and the tombstone.But there sure is an element of the wrestler's physical limitations involved here.For example,if Nash had used the tombstone frequently,he would have been outa action pretty sooner,coz this is a move that takes a lot out of your lower back.Even if you watch the jackknife closely,you can see that he did'nt quite give it the elevation of a Sid powerbomb or last ride for that matter.It's coz the more is that elevation,the more pressure is taken by your back.And we know that he did'nt have a solid back.Similarly,a spear is well suited with a giy with really solid shoulders,and though effective,we can see how Edge's spear pales in comparison to that of Goldberg.Apart from character,a move also requires commiting yourself to training one's body.......and,well,Andre did't commit himself to any significant move.

Look at any modern wrestler.HHH,Stone Cold,The Rock,The Undertaker.............they may be crowd pullers,move sellers or anything else.But one just cannot point to them and say:Hell,he's not even a good athelete!!That's my only bone of contention with Andre.He did'nt beat me up when I was a kid