[ace_bubble]

Hi,
This post is primarily meant for pagalguy but since it’s posted on a public forum all are free to input their view.
Thus is mostly related to the issue “plagiarism by CL”, but I covers a wider aspect so I thought of posting in a separate thread under chitchat.
Right at the onset no offence meant to anybody and take it lightly as my other threads of analysis, rankings, scores, queries, thoughts etc.
Pagalguy I have been on this forum since mid December and seen the forum rise by leaps and bounds since then from less than 2000 users to more than 4000 users.

I have been watching the CL thread for quite some time and certain things I would like to bring out which is relevant to this forum.

As rightly perceived this is a public forum with aim of making b school aspirants/ graduates come across a table to exchange views.

There have been many sorts of discussions –
People saying good/bad things about a particular b-school (acceptable India is a democratic country where one has freedom to express his view), and ya god save those schools whose alumni/students are not on this forum!!!

People saying good/bad things about various coaching institutes, acceptable again for the same reason mentioned above.

By acceptable I mean there is nothing wrong in doing so and also perhaps no legal obligation.

Then we have people discussing the questions, which they are given along with the study material of these coaching institutes and taken from a book, this is also ok, and I feel these coaching institutes would not object to that.

Then we do something like CL has done only once and there is such hue and cry for that. Many people have directly posted analysis/contents from these coaching institutes website on our forum and there website also mentions the copyright thing. This from my side is also acceptable, I don’t know whether there are any legal objections these coaching institutes can put. Also one thing for sure, I have not seen any coaching institute demanding apology from pagalguy.com for the same. Reasons, Ill discuss later.

Now what is not acceptable and illegal from any aspect is that people have exchanged electronic material in original form across this forum. This electronic material includes question papers/ answer keys, GK papers, online study material (I have myself downloaded some of these from this forum) this any coaching institute can object because it may hamper their business. It is something like napster used to exchange music and music companies objected and Napster was closed down.

Touch wood, some thing like this does not happen to such a close-knit forum of us.

No let me come to the apology thing and why CL made an apology to the admin of this forum, and some of us perceive it to be a victory. Well its as simple CL does not care about us and have much larger issues to focus there energy and time on, they simply don’t want to waste there resources on us.
Well these institutes don’t care for such forums even if we also do some infringement, and this would be as long as this forum does not hamper their business, the day it would be they would really come down very heavily on us.
Well these institutes are in industry for years, the people on top management are very capable of handling situations; they have years of experience handling such crisis situations.

Compared to this what is our forum
More than 60% of people are college students who live on their dad’s money and are blissfully ignorant of the real world.

Then there are 10% of people studying in b school, they are more worried about there academics and placements and come to this forum to rave bout there school and obviously to give direction to the ignorant 60%

Then there are people who have taken a drop for preparation and they use this forum as one of their many data banks including coaching institutes.

Then there are people like me who have a desktop related job and ample free time and Internet resources to pass some time.

What if tomorrow there is a legal battle or pagalguy needs support, how many of us would actually be there.

Next there are some issues, which I have seen, cropped up recently, we have a warning system, banning users, what is all that I ask you. How can you ban a user you can just lock his id and he can create 10 ids daily to logging to your system. Thank got there are not amity social elements in this forum, pagalguy you know how much efforts it takes to Spam a website and make it so slow that it crashes.

Well pagalguy you have put a copyright, I think you should also put a disclaimer which states that views/content posted by original author are of their own pagaalguy.com is not responsible for the contents.

You should stop these things like banning and warning people and let the things be simple. This would ensure no anti social element is ever provoked.

You should ensure that original material copyrighted by others is not exchanged on this forum.

This is all required to ensure the health of this forum.

I would end by saying one thing – you had once asked me a question that have I ever watched a sunset. I ask you the same question back – have you ever watched a sunset?

Cheers

[whocarez]

Ace well thought of but i feel little off the mark..
We dont do anything for profit.....The sole idea of this forum is help people and belive me it goes a long way in our favour if some legal battle ever takes place (i know it wont ever ) As far as Napstar being closed down it is 1 of the most unfortunate thing and 1 of the most talked about thing in the public circles. 1 thing ur missing here is those record companies enjoyed the support of government which is not the case with these coaching institutes. (infact they are despised) If you know only last week canadian court has refused so shut down p to p file sharing networks like kaaza and WinMX. And as far as banning and locking goes l feel this forum is one of the least moderated forums. Belive there are hundred of ways u can keep certain ppl out irrespective of how many nicks they use.(until and unless he is a total geek and knows what he is doing). So i feel we are safe here and nothing to worry (atleast not yet)

[nils]

Hi ace,

I appreciate man, u raised good point abt the copyright issue. If we want others to follow it, we should apply it first to ourselves, what do u say Allwin?

Well, abt blocking people, I think PG, Anil & other mods r doing gr8 work. We need such supervision to block un-necessary indecent activities. As per as I know, they hardly blocked couple of people, so they should continue with this policy.

But abt the coyright issue, I feel we should first set a disclaimer and then need to something abt it. I agree that if something wrong happens, most of the people will simply run away.

[haripi2]

hi ace,
a very mature observation . i think there is nothing to raise such a hue and cry abt CL(me not taking sides ..but just my opinion..) .Reg: blocking and locking i think the mods are justified... but the public apology by CL i dont approve. a very valid point raised w.r.t legal battles .the questions we discuss are copyright information of the institutes so w.r.t that i guess even we are indulging in infringement of copyrights(someone..correct me if i am wrong).

Cheers,
Prashanth

[Spiderman]

What if tomorrow there is a legal battle or pagalguy needs support, how many of us would actually be there.

see u cant expect junta to contribute financiallly for a legal tussle, but u know what i believe time is more important than money , and i am willing to contribute that if need arises.and i believe most others can .

Next there are some issues, which I have seen, cropped up recently, we have a warning system, banning users, what is all that I ask you. How can you ban a user you can just lock his id and he can create 10 ids daily to logging to your system. Thank got there are not amity social elements in this forum, pagalguy you know how much efforts it takes to Spam a website and make it so slow that it crashes.

its not so easy as u think ace . no one can fool the mods in this . they have plenty of ways to track down and block troble makers . why do u think none of the people banned so far have ever come back and spammed?

Well pagalguy you have put a copyright, I think you should also put a disclaimer which states that views/content posted by original author are of their own pagaalguy.com is not responsible for the contents

i believe that is already done , but not sure . can allwyn clarify this ?

[THREADLOCKER]

Just think of the topedge of tcyonline.com in our download section.....don't u think that that material has got copyright.
There are many materials loaded in this forum which violate tha CR.
The guys/gals who have loaded wanted to share the materials,serve all because they have gained a lot from this forum.
Knowingly or unknowingly but the laws have been violated.
May be,they may take the action against those who have loaded and than no one can deny.
Where is the copyright law when the talk about exchange of question paper takes place ,don't u guys/gals think that tha coaching classes suffer a loss?
And most of us cannot spend money on coaching institutes and we can't give the tests of different inst.simultaneousley every year but we r benefitted by sharing of materials thru xerox machine.
Either we should fully follow the CR otherwise leave it as it is.

[Cruciverbalist]

Hi ppl!

Am a new guy here. just 2 months old to this site.To bhool chuk maaf kar dena.
I have only recently read abt this thread as i was out of station.after reading all the posts, i feel that what ace has said is quite right.

The point is that how much ever we think that it is not, but still we might also be knowingly or unknowingly doing some amount of CR violation.So we also shud not take this too much at heart.

agreed that what they(CL) have done is wrong enough,but they have talked abt an apology and if they give it,then fine.even if not the pt. is that why shud we get into unnecessary hassles and even think of taking any major legal steps.

Ultimately, We are here for the benefit of the student community and shud not forget that. So i sincerely hope that this matter gets solved as soon as possible for the betterment of PG itself.

Lastly, PG.com rocks man. and that too i feel not only reg. CAT but the ppl are well informed abnt everything(as MBA candidates shud be).
Especially the work done by the mods is great .Thumbs UP to them and PG himself.

Hope that i have not gone too much out of context!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok then ciao...

Cruciverbalist..........

[Sameer Gupta]

Hi All,

Well after reading the long post by Ace_bubble, I thought of doing some extensive research in this regard and come out with certain facts, which probably we all do not know.

PS: This is not to go against Ace_bubble.(Believe me) or take side of PG. I personally feel, CL was ETHICALLY, MORALLY and even CONDUCT-Wise too, wrong in taking experiences of GD/PI from the PG Forum and posting on their website, with no reference to PG. My personal views in support of PG which might be completely wrong also.

[Disclaimer: I have taken utmost care to read and understand the points and take examples to substantiate them. Under any point, if I am wrong I apologize. I confirm that the details below have been compiled only to bring into consideration various facets of Copyright. I might be entirely wrong in this issue and hence consider the following statements to be personal observations. ]

Ace_bubble, you took the point of using the TCY TopEdge ©. Here is a FAQ answer for the question:

WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:
· Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
· Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
· Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration
· Works consisting entirely of information that is common property and containing no original authorship (for example: standard calendars, height and weight charts, tape measures and rulers, and lists or tables taken from public documents or other common sources)

The point in red refers to General Knowledge as well, and compilation of GK facts and current affairs issues should not count as Copyright. The above FAQ also points out saying “Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts…” cannot be counted as Copyrighted material. TopEdge being a process of accumulating facts and data of current concern becomes either a process or method which accumulates facts that is common property and hence cannot be Copyrighted or if distributed, does not count for plagiarism.

Another FAQ question points:

WHAT IS COPYRIGHT?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:
· To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
· To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
· To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;· To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
· To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and
· In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

Though there is a point which say “To distribute copies or phonorecords of ….”, it mentions that it should not be sold, or transferred by rental/lease/lending. We do not charge anything for the distribution and hence do not violate this rule.

Also to the point “To display the copyrighted work publicly…”, it refers to only the cases of literary, musical, dramatic or artistic works, which TopEdge or the question papers are certainly not.

Another detail says,

When creating a Web page, you CANNOT:
· Put the contents of another person's or organizations web site on your Web page
· Copy and paste information together from various Internet sources to create "your own" document. [You CAN quote or paraphrase limited amounts, if you give credit to the original source and the location of the source. This same principle applies to print sources, of course.]
· Incorporate other people's electronic material, such as e-mail, in your own document, without permission.
· Forward someone's e-mail to another recipient without permission
· Change the context of or edit someone else's digital correspondence in a way which changes the meaning
· Copy and paste others' lists of resources on your own web page
· Copy and paste logos, icons, and other graphics from other web sites to your web page (unless it is clearly advertised as "freeware." Shareware is not free). Some organizations are happy to let you use their logos, with permission - it is free advertising. But they want to know who is using it. They might not approve of all sites who want to use their logo.

The above point in red clearly depicts what CL had done and hence concludes that what they did was against the rules of Internet Copyright.

Here is one more to Plagiarism…

What is Plagiarism?
Plagiarism is the act of stealing and passing off the ideas, words, or other intellectual property produced by another as one's own. For example, using someone else's words in a research paper without citing the source, is an act of plagiarism.

None of the PG posts refer that the TopEdge material is theirs or any of the question papers. Rather we always make a post with the source of the material as well, which nullifies the act of copying them and posting in a Public forum.

Fair use.
Fair use is one of the most important, and least clear cut, limits to copyright. It permits some use of others' works even without approval. But when? Words like "fair" or "reasonable" cannot be precisely defined, but here are a few benchmarks.

Uses that advance public interests such as criticism, education or scholarship are favored -- particularly if little of another's work is copied. Uses that generate income or interfere with a copyright owner's income are not. Fairness also means crediting original artists or authors. (A teacher who copied, without credit, much of another's course materials was found to infringe.)

Commercial uses of another's work are also disfavored. For example, anyone who uses, without explicit permission, others' work to suggest that they endorse some commercial product is asking for trouble! Yet, not all commercial uses are forbidden. Most magazines and newspapers are operated for profit; that they are not automatically precluded from fair use has been made clear by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Though the CL's use of material does not interfere at all with our income (coz we do not make income.) But it helps CL generate income and hence is Copyright violation.

Considering the last red point of the above Quote, we are not making any commercial use of another's work, though it is the question papers.

I hope I was able to put the points in logical way. PG (Any points for me on my HOME WORK or assignment. . Well this post was just to look into the details and ensure that we were right. I do agree there are lot of clauses and sub-clauses (and sometimes sub-sub-clauses) in legal documents. However, this was my best effort to put forth certain facts, as much I could garner.

I feel it is very important now to quote the sources from where I have taken the above points. The sources from where I have copied the points are as below:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

http://www.fplc.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

http://mason.gmu.edu/~montecin/copyright-internet.htm

I am open to any kind of criticism with regard to mistakes I might have done in interpreting the clauses. Please do let me know what all other PGites feel about this post.

Sameer Gupta

[itdood]

one hell of a research work, d00d ... i think both of u have put points, which i agree to a large extent .... left opinionless at the moment

... hey PG, prolly we r all waiting for ur post here ... plz enlighten

[ace_bubble]

disclaimer from my side also ..
i am not taking any sides but intention is to ensure the health and long life of this forum

sameer_gupta01 ill just quote one line from your whole document

Uses that generate income or interfere with a copyright owner's income are not.

our exchange of digital elctronic material sich as question papers, answer key, study material, GK paper, there analysis of various tests can interfere with the respective owners income.
They can easily prove it in court hence it would entitle us with breach of some legal processes

cheers