[PaGaLGuY Debate] The dark side of our B-school campus cultures, traditions and more

[murty001]

Mods, This might seem like a spam,heck, it is spam, but I wish to thank the above post of Oxymoron 1000 times I guess it sums it up. Enjoy smoking the pipe people

Cheers..

PS- Just go back in history and you will see that some of the greatest insults were made without even a word of slang. And some of the best bantering in cricket were the ones in which there was no slang.

[sandeeparora1]

This is a shameless behavior. Its takes enduring efforts to build a reputation, as did by IIMs. And here is a bunch of students relegating all the rank and profile of institutes to the lowest order.

Millions are spent to transform an amteur into a business leader and if this is the outcome then its quite questionable.

If we need to meet the challenges of corporate circle and mature lifestyle then we have to practice decency and modesty in all realms of life. If it is competition then they should show their skills and sporty spirit rather than bantering and mud slinging.

Its disappointing to see such students of highest calibre falling to such low standards.

Originally Posted by Apurv

Update - our views on why we did this story and the larger picture behind it

IIM Calcutta and XLRI Jamshedpur - two premier known business schools in eastern India clash every year for a much-anticipated sports meet. Incidentally, that is also the time when the campus cultures at both these schools stoop to their lowest. Read the rest after you watch the video.

Click here to Download the video

This is a video of women students from IIM Calcutta 'welcoming' the XLRI Jamshedpur team.

If you're thinking that this happens in the heat of the competition, wait up. We're told by IIM Calcutta students, that the women students are formally coached by a stalwart from the second year in the skill of the most tasteless abusing months prior to the event. With a lot of glee, a few XLRI students and alumni tell us that they pay IIM Calcutta back in the same way. A search of Youtube.com reveals more examples of the high vocabulary passed on as 'culture' from second year students to first year students.


All of us at the PaGaLGuY office were appalled at the video. But we were aware that a lot of people will justify it using one or more of the following arguments.

"What is so shocking about it? Don't we see it everywhere these days? Movies, TV, what have you? Sab chalta hai yaar."

"You're shocked because it's women who're abusing. Had it been men you would be okay. You clearly believe in a male dominating society."

"Why don't you also look at the good things these institutes do? Just because they hurl abuses at mothers doesn't mean they're bad people."

We strongly felt that these arguments were heavily misplaced. We talked to a few students from both these institutes and came to one conclusion - B-schools with traditionally male-dominated batches have created large pockets of tasteless campus culture, which haven't changed since the number of women increased.

In cases of videos such as this one, ordinary people from good backgrounds choose to let go of their poise to indulge in mindless crass behaviour just so that they can fit into something they can't change.

We spoke to IIM Calcutta's Dean of Programmes and Initiatives Prof Saibal Chattopadhyaya, who chose to distance himself from the video and seemed more concerned if the video was uploaded from IIM Calcutta servers. Asked if he was worried about what he saw in the video and had subsequent concerns about the campus culture within IIM Calcutta, he said, "I have to verify first if these students (in the video) are indeed ours but until then I can't say anything."

What we want to ask is, are we okay with our country's taxpayer-funded educational institutions being utilized this way? Can these campuses ever compete with Harvard and Oxfords of the world? Most importantly, is this the right thing and are you okay with what you see?

We don't think so, but we'd like to know your views. Feel free to post your comments below or on this thread.

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by pendyal

it has been said earlier by someone also that similar incidents happen in the armed forces.....but arent the same armed forces taking a stand now/coming under fire for sexual discrimination and harassment? the same officers who we call gentlemen when they behave disgustingly with their female colleagues are being investigated......wud these army officers keep quiet if their sons/daughters used the same principle of welcoming a new member in the colony in the same way their parents did when ther were students in the academy? i dont think so.......

the fact that it happens in an institution as old and respected as the army doesnt make any of this right.....and we shudnt hide behind this logic......

cool..!! that's a debate.. a proper one.. this is happening all over.. across geographies.. across institutions.. across organizations.. across youth all over the world.. if you wanna discuss we can of course, some place else

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

The more I get into this by talking to people who I know and trust studying in these institutes frankly the more murkier it is getting But speculations aside there are many disturbing undercurrents to these stuff than the rather ostensible “swearing”. First of all these are my personal takes on the couple of issues which has been highlighted in this thread.

I am actually dumb enough not to figure out the 'undercurrents'.. I am the stupid you cannot tolerate..

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

1.Swearing as an intimidation technique
2.The IIM A top 5 dorm culture.

This isn’t an attempt to take a “moral superior” stand or anything. Heck anyone who knows me well know that I am liberal to a fault. ( Except of course I am a staunch Conservative when it comes to tolerating stupidity ). So frankly I am all for your right to swear ( What did Voltaire say? “ Thou might be stupid and an imbecile but I shalt protect your right to be one! “ Ok so he said something else in French but it got lost in translation ) .

rebel is the one who goes against the majority, the norm, the tradition.. Smoke that and tell me who's the rebel or idiot as you wanna put it..

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

It’s very very uncool. Take that and smoke it in your pipe.

Well only if you could define cool and uncool, but everybody has his or her own.. right??

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

You are welcome to swear needlessly and worse as “intimidation” technique but allow me to ignore you and declare your behavior, well for want of a better word, crass.

As I said you either ignore it, accept it or protest against it on the correct platform. Is this the correct platform?? are you a victim? btw do you think anybody give's a **** about what you think is crass?? for that matter do you give a **** about what i think is crass??? eh..??

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

Point 2 about expressing the sexual fantasies. I think it’s a great idea! In fact I would say with some people the only meaningful conversation I can possibly have is to discuss their sexual fantasies. I am not going to take any moral high stand that it “objectifies” women and denigrates their feminity. Heck, I subscribe to the view point that the homo sapiens species are nothing but automatons and seriously how much more reductionist can you get than that?

But actually my greatest disappointment from the posts here is that there was not one single person who posted that

1. 1. Yes I like Swearing and I do it out of my own volition. Sue me.

2. 2. Yes I have sexual fantasies about my friends. Your problem being?

But no. they had to take refuge in “tradition” ( “Oh I wouldn’t dream of swearing and I am goody too shoes but then you know it’s the culture and tradition..in other words I was a kind of victim though I had fun “ ).

tradition or not.. has anyone been forced into anything?? If it is true, let the affected people come out in the open rather than taking shield behind a forum. Is this forum their college's authorities???

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

We have a term for that. Called Sheep mentality.

Has anyone ever tried taking a democratic poll of your own students and see what they actually think of all these “traditions”?

How in the world can democracy get rid of sheep mentality?? Puhleaase educate me..!! I need to know this

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

And what’s with the post rationalization that all this prepares you for the “big bad world” outside ?

Right. This is what happens outside. Board room meetings where one swears at one other.

It builds “character” indeed.

Oh this one I cannot explain, but you have to go through it to know it.. it's simple desensitization.. you just learn how to take s#it.. which you do have to in this “big bad world”.. anyways people have their own ways.. you welcome to find yours.. if you missed my previous post.. it said: 'It's a personal choice'

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

And now you want to shoot the messenger. Awesome way of damage control.

nobody's shooting the messenger.. but if the messenger does not deliver the message properly.. what's one supposed to do??

Ok.. let me make another thing clear.. I am not against PG's stand on this.. if there is injustice taking place against a few.. let there be some proof.. I as a part of this community refuse to believe facts which are not being proved.. On the other hand i stick to my stand saying that there is nothing wrong in what's been shown.. the video doesn't prove a friggin thing about how these girls are being 'forced' into doing what they did..

[Oxymoron]

@Jackal : You are confusing issues here I have nothing against angst ridden swearing. "Heck","Damn" etc are all the same. What I was riling against and what this thread is about in the first place, is targeted swearing as a "mental conditioning" technique. Or doing it for "fun".

This is not an issue of "personal choice". The territory of personal choices end with personal angst. And frankly that is where even whether you can react or not starts and ends

I hope you see the point we are trying to make here. But if people do that to bring down an opponent then my condescension holds.

And oh the world owes you nothing. And neither do you owe the world anything.

[Apurv]

Webyantra IIM-C XLRI Campus Video: How social media can get eggs on your face…

This is a post by the co-founder and COO of SlideShare.com, a well known website used to share powerpoint presentations. He says and I quote,

This amateur video was forwarded to me some time back via an agitated email from a student of XLRI Jamshedpur asking me to publish it on my blog to ‘expose’ the indiscretions of their IIM-C counterparts. I have been debating whether or not to publish it, for it is clearly provocative and also because I was unsure of its veracity. I am choosing to do so now after reading this post on Pagalguy.

I would like to draw attention to the sentence in italics. Some people in this thread have been arguing - "if both IIMC and XLRI are okay with it, why does anyone have a problem?"

Amit Ranjan is a well known and successful entrepreneur in the startup circuit so one assumes that he writes a blog that is credible.

This blog post refutes the claim that everyone in these schools is okay with it. There are undercurrents which one doesn't notice unless inquiring.

Furthermore below. Again, a long post so kindly read with patience instead of skimming through.

Someone asked me for proof that people in the video above were indeed coached. As I said, we showed the video to a few people from both schools and asked for their opinions while promising them confidentiality. They all had different opinions, but all of them corroborated on that one fact - that a 'father' from PGP 2nd year is selected to coach the women students to abuse. We cannot break their trust by revealing their mails here because someone wants to get into the petty argument of proof. Common sense says, PG does not like to commit harakiri by putting something because of which it will lose in the court of law.

Another argument that is being oft quoted - "What is the use of doing this? IIMC and XLRI still rock and by publishing this story people are not going to stop going to these colleges."

Our reply - that line of thought is a knee jerk reaction and a 'black or white view' of the world. What we have done is not a comment on the quality of academics at these institutions, nor is it our purpose or interest to assassinate their characters. I don't believe such a thing is even possible for any media - even the largest selling newspaper in the world - to make people stop joining a b-school because of one story. We just wanted to point out this one thing - that applicants and their parents should know before they join an institute - that a culture of coaching in abusing exists there. If somebody thinks we are trying to stop people from joining IIM C or XLRI - it is a creation of their own imagination - a conclusion they jumped to - and we do not subscribe to it. We personally think that both IIM C and XLRI rock as schools and both of these schools are in top 5 in PG's owb B-school Rankings. But, one of the schools has a questionable cultural pocket that people need to know about.

Now there are questions on whether PG is the right medium for such a story or not. By putting this post here, we know and are fully aware that we might become very very unpopular and we are okay with it. To begin with, we are not here to win popularity awards, as Allwin (pagalguy) puts it himself. We are here to do what is right. All of us at PG have chucked cushy jobs and some have refused IIM final admits to be in something we are passionate about. If loads of money was our goal, we would have been better off elsewhere. But that is not so.

In the last few years, here are a few things that have been brought to light either by users or us...

a) XLRI ragging
b) IMT Ghaziabad's style of publishing their placement reports - the thread was a boiling pot
c) An apparent war between IIFT Delhi and IIFT Kolkata over placements - with IIFT administration and PR agency calling us to delete the thread while not denying the incident despite our pointed asking repeatedly
d) Fudging of figures in placement reports in general
e) MICA's apparent mismanagement of admission lists - after PG did a story they changed their list and last I remember, you guys loved it
f) XLRI Singapore's taking application money for a course they never started - they refunded the money back after we took up the issue

All these were negative stories that brought on new awareness about b-schools among applicants. Did we ever imply that people should not go to these schools because of a single malady? I don't remember us saying so.

Now what are the things you guys look for in a b-school before you join it?

- Faculty
- Placements
- Infrastrucutre
- Culture
- Admission process
- Etc

We've tried to cover the positive and negative aspects of admissions and placements a lot. Let's come to culture. We cover almost all the festivals that ever happen in these schools and B-schoolers write about the rosy and positive sides of their b-school lives in the Life@threads.

Now, what some people in this thread seem to be implying is - "We are okay if PG covers the positive and negative aspects of placements and admissions, but when it comes to culture, please please do not show us the negative side at all and only cover the rosy picture." Absurd indeed. I would like to see you to object to us when we expose an admission irregularity next time. After all, don't admission irregularities happen everywhere? Isn't it normal and doesn't everybody do it? So what is shocking about it? I would especially like to hear you say so when you are one of the applicants wronged against in that list.

Is this story relevant? As far as I can see, there are an equal number of people here who are questioning faulty cultural pockets in institutions and two of them are from the absolute best b-school in the country. So this is not an irrelevant issue. And if the above blog post and a few emails in our inbox are to be believed, all people in XLRI and IIM C are not okay with IIM C sledging during the sports meet. Not everyone wants to follow the sheep mentality. Some of them have the courage to stand up and speak out. Others are too complacent to act and remain silent. Doesn't mean they are okay with it.

Whatever be the case - we will not brush it under the carpet because some people find it "not PG", even if we become unpopular and some people decide to stop surfing it.

PS - to the people who think PG is doing this to increase traffic and make money. Please stop surfing this thread, because you are only adding to that traffic and helping us make more (according to you) 'sensational money'.

[MavericK]

The last post by Apurv (#255) is arguably the best post on PG that I have seen of late.. (Ok! Of late I see very few posts).

Its so very common to forget the good deeds and point fingers towards something that "you" think is out of context and all that. Views and opinions apart, I dont really see anything wrong in fighting for a cause. And as Rohit has mentioned, if this thread and whatever follows can change a couple of lives, there is nothing like it.

To make things clear, I think all that has been mentioned is an industry-wide phenomenon. Just like doping is not just restricted to Pakistan, sledging with Aussies and match-fixing scandals just to Italian Clubs. Somewhere down the line there is something important that we are missing, among the oceans of "tradition", "Been there done that" and other such fundae!

[willsurelywin]

but watver be the case thse gals have booked their names/pic/videos in history for people 2 see.

maybe through this video people will be afraid to do such things :thumsup:

[Jackal]

Originally Posted by willsurelywin

but watver be the case thse gals have booked their names/pic/videos in history for people 2 see.

maybe through this video people will be afraid to do such things :thumsup:

i dont think thats something to be proud of.. just shows how our privacy has been invaded by technology..

@oxy: if you say that you discussing what you say you are discussing.. you are probably missing a lot of other things here..

@mav: dont think your open ended opinion is helping the cause..!! if there is any??

@apurv: dude you know what you sound like.. you sound like those xyz party's MPs in the parliament claiming that the abc MP was trying to buy our MPs.. here is the proof the money he gave us..

[murty001]

Apurv, a well compiled post. Although I had my reservations about the starting one, this one puts things in the right place. I am glad that PG has taken the initiative and shown to the users that there is more to it than being a just a dumping ground for Maths and DI fundas. And today I am glad that I stuck with this forum for the past 5 years, even though I had no serious intention of taking up CAT. People who can take this forum in its new role will stay, about the rest, nobody cares. As for me, I will hang around as long as gnr doesn't use the red button .

Finally I plead to the crusaders of India's new found "tradition", please see things in the right perspective and stop justifying the act.

Cheers..