[mintyj]

Originally Posted by takeNoPrisoners

You do make some cogent and valid points.But isn't upto the girl/woman herself to take the step forward for her own advancement rather than she being "encouraged" by pedantic incentives!

Isn't merit,by definition,free of any influences and sufficient to carve out its own path?

And what about the negatives influences that reservations/lowering of bars automatically bring along?

I do agree, to the realities of Indian society,at present,as pointed out by you.

But isn't it also worth looking at what results these "little perks" have had in rectifying the present abyssmal ratio at workplaces across corporate India?


"Every guy at the back of his mind, still feels a woman can get away with not having the best education and career just because she can also choose to be a homemaker instead." ->This is a pretty unfair generalisation.This can also be countered by saying that girls have this kind of a mindset,but the fact remains that in India,the social conditioning is such that it is fairly common to come across such instances.

Those who complain are doubtful of their own capabilities, I feel.

And what about those ask for concessions and perks How is this indicative of their confidence?

P.S : All the arguments are in the spirit of a healthy discussion.

LOL! Yes, I would not have posted in a guys-only thread complaining about women if I had not intended to invite criticism to my views

About being driven by self point,, No, I do not think it is that simple. I can illustrate 2 very clear-cut examples of very qualified women known to me whose circumstances at home have driven their choices of their careers. Both highly independent and educated.

About, the generalised statement, I was not trying to be offensive. I just expressed the Indian mentality as a majority. Exceptions are always there!

About asking for concessions, I did not ask for "concessions" literally, but doing nothing about a matter that holds crucial importance in terms of healthy growth of a country also cannot be justified.

I also said I would take it as offensive if I was chosen for anything on a "reservation", but you missed that point, didn't you?

Thought you guys were complaining about reservations. Once women get appointed for their job, based on their merit, would you also mind giving them some perks? Here comes my "Those who complain are doubtful of their own capabilities, I feel." statement.
Of course, women can always reject such "favours" of their own accord. But then, to each his own! And when things get better, it can always be stopped. Though chances are it will become obsolete as more and more women become independent and deny such perks.

Wat else?

[takeNoPrisoners]

LOL! Yes, I would not have posted in a guys-only thread complaining about women if I had not intended to invite criticism to my views

Ahaaan..Courage appreciated



About being driven by self point,, No, I do not think it is that simple. I can illustrate 2 very clear-cut examples of very qualified women known to me whose circumstances at home have driven their choices of their careers. Both highly independent and educated.

Please bring out the examples

On a serious note,why didn't they prioritise their careers?

Support can only get you so far,but what after that!



About, the generalised statement, I was not trying to be offensive. I just expressed the Indian mentality as a majority. Exceptions are always there!

"Every guy at the back of his mind" sounded more than just a generalisation to me



About asking for concessions, I did not ask for "concessions" literally, but doing nothing about a matter that holds crucial importance in terms of healthy growth of a country also cannot be justified.

Absolutely.Thats the fulcrum of the entire debate,but what exactly do you mean by "little perks" ?



I also said I would take it as offensive if I was chosen for anything on a "reservation", but you missed that point, didn't you?





Thought you guys were complaining about reservations. Once women get appointed for their job, based on their merit, would you also mind giving them some perks? Here comes my "Those who complain are doubtful of their own capabilities, I feel." statement.

Same question again.What exactly constitutes perks according to you?



Wat else?


Waiting for the answers

[mintyj]

Originally Posted by takeNoPrisoners

LOL! Yes, I would not have posted in a guys-only thread complaining about women if I had not intended to invite criticism to my views

Ahaaan..Courage appreciated



About being driven by self point,, No, I do not think it is that simple. I can illustrate 2 very clear-cut examples of very qualified women known to me whose circumstances at home have driven their choices of their careers. Both highly independent and educated.

Please bring out the examples

On a serious note,why didn't they prioritise their careers?

Support can only get you so far,but what after that!




About, the generalised statement, I was not trying to be offensive. I just expressed the Indian mentality as a majority. Exceptions are always there!

"Every guy at the back of his mind" sounded more than just a generalisation to me



About asking for concessions, I did not ask for "concessions" literally, but doing nothing about a matter that holds crucial importance in terms of healthy growth of a country also cannot be justified.

Absolutely.Thats the fulcrum of the entire debate,but what exactly do you mean by "little perks" ?





I also said I would take it as offensive if I was chosen for anything on a "reservation", but you missed that point, didn't you?







Thought you guys were complaining about reservations. Once women get appointed for their job, based on their merit, would you also mind giving them some perks? Here comes my "Those who complain are doubtful of their own capabilities, I feel." statement.

Same question again.What exactly constitutes perks according to you?





Wat else?


Waiting for the answers

Riggghtt! Ok, examples :

Well one was an English lecturer who gave up her job to stay with the kids and the family. Some problems occurred within the couple. She left and is now on her own in a not that great condition.
Second was an Engineer, who stayed at home for the same reasons. Did MBA(from FMS ) during her stay and is still at a stay

About the Generalised statement : Okay, let's say exceptions would be women. LOL!
No, but I consider exceptions, just didn't put it right I guess.

"Concessions" to me would be something considered after merit gets you in(sorry, I edited that later when I thought I was not clear). Like, little concessions in taxes, home loans, other loans, and such. Nothing partial. Nothing derogatory. Or anything that's unfair to anybody else

Reservations of any kind is a No-No to me! It makes everybody suffer.

Pheww..

[takeNoPrisoners]

Riggghtt! Ok, examples :

Well one was an English lecturer who gave up her job to stay with the kids and the family. Some problems occurred within the couple. She left and is now on her own in a not that great condition.
Second was an Engineer, who stayed at home for the same reasons. Did MBA(from FMS ) during her stay and is still at a stay

So what you are saying is that circumstances forced these competent women to compromise on their careers.

Agreed.

But what incentive could have really helped them?



About the Generalised statement : Okay, let's say exceptions would be women. LOL!
No, but I consider exceptions, just didn't put it right I guess.

Okies,matter buried



"Concessions" to me would be something considered after merit gets you in(sorry, I edited that later when I thought I was not clear). Like, little concessions in taxes, home loans, other loans, and such. Nothing partial. Nothing derogatory. Or anything that's unfair to anybody else



No one here has problems with womenfolk getting tax rebates/lower interest rates etc,but the point is how will that ever encourage women to compete with men on an equal footing. To comprehend my point,try applying these "concessions" to the 2 examples you gave.

Would these concessions have helped,when they really needed some support?

You know the answer here!



Reservations of any kind is a No-No to me! It makes everybody suffer.

Pheww..

Can't agree more

[mintyj]

Originally Posted by takeNoPrisoners

Riggghtt! Ok, examples :

Well one was an English lecturer who gave up her job to stay with the kids and the family. Some problems occurred within the couple. She left and is now on her own in a not that great condition.
Second was an Engineer, who stayed at home for the same reasons. Did MBA(from FMS ) during her stay and is still at a stay

So what you are saying is that circumstances forced these competent women to compromise on their careers.

Agreed.

But what incentive could have really helped them?

Here I explained how choices are not self-driven even in the best of circumstances.. Perks is what I ask for women who are competent,yet can't muster enough reason required to satisfy their families about why they need to work. If they see that it WILL lead to some good, they might budge.

"Concessions" to me would be something considered after merit gets you in(sorry, I edited that later when I thought I was not clear). Like, little concessions in taxes, home loans, other loans, and such. Nothing partial. Nothing derogatory. Or anything that's unfair to anybody else

Reservations of any kind is a No-No to me! It makes everybody suffer.

Pheww..

Noone here has problems with womenfolk getting tax rebates/lower interest rates etc,but the point is how will that ever encourage women to compete with men on a equal footing. To comprehend my point,try applying these "concessions" to the 2 examples you gave.

Did these things help,when they really need some support?

You know the answer here!

I meant I am not asking companies to have 50% female employees. This is what generally leads to incompetent workforce. But I am asking for some kind of motivation, like accomodations for working women, or maybe concessions in THAT area.. extending Retirement by 2 yrs and all that! Now that does not harm chances of men in anyway, does it? Still it can be considered a plus.

[takeNoPrisoners]

Originally Posted by mintyj

Here I explained how choices are not self-driven even in the best of circumstances.. Perks is what I ask for women who are competent,yet can't muster enough reason required to satisfy their families about why they need to work. If they see that it WILL lead to some good, they might budge.

Allright,but the point is that these perks exist and the benefits of introducing such perks are there for all of us to see.

Serves only tokenism,no real purpose.

Originally Posted by mintyj

I meant I am not asking companies to have 50% female employees. This is what generally leads to incompetent workforce. But I am asking for some kind of motivation, like accomodations for working women, or maybe concessions in THAT area.. extending Retirement by 2 yrs and all that! Now that does not harm chances of men in anyway, does it? Still it can be considered a plus.

These things already exist(atleast in the private sector),in official as well as unofficial terms.

Why else would you have creches in office,maternity as well as paternity leaves,flexible working hours for married women!!

Even managers are generally considerate towards women when it comes to levying the office responsibilities and roles on them.

And this I say,with personal experience,not as a measure of lip service.

[mintyj]

Then I don't know what the debate was all about. Because my basic point was that some perks(even if existing ones..though new ones can be thought of) should be there, even if for a short period.

And reservations(existing obviously, as the point has been raised) should really not be promoted.

So to sum up.. I meant some perks are fine for the betterment, that they can be justified, while going for reservations is kind of extreme..

[takeNoPrisoners]

Originally Posted by mintyj

Then I don't know what the debate was all about. Because my basic point was that some perks(even if existing ones..though new ones can be thought of) should be there, even if for a short period.

And reservations(existing obviously, as the point has been raised) should really not be promoted.

So to sum up.. I meant some perks are fine for the betterment, that they can be justified, while going for reservations is kind of extreme..

Yeah,that's pretty much the deal and how it should be ideally!

But there are gross ways in which lot of womenfolk misuse the advantages they stand to gain

and some that rightfully accrue.Also,people in positions of power in organizations tend to grant

undue favours to them.

This is what obviously causes the opposite gender to feel left out and envious.

Some folks,take it a bit too far and hence shut themselves to all kinds of arguements,which isn't fair.



But the basic point is whenever it comes to matters of equality,those in power generally talk

only about reservations and not equal opportunities(which is the need of the hour),to serve

their own sordid interests.

[iimabcl]

[kicks-Ass]

A clue. Can someone give one to this poor lady. I believe her own statements show why women(or men) like her should not be given an advantage at the workplace

PS:Can someone Edit the thread title? I dont believe its called Vu Technologlies