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Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinh - 12-03-2006, 01:06 AM

i guess once you start working the sooner you forget the things taught in college the better!

besides if they take everybody with good acads then the whole point of diversity gets beaten right? get someone who was down in the drains during graduation but has a great percentile in CAT!

besides is this the case of backward integration if you can call it .

companies want certain kind of ppl >> IIMs get those kind of ppl >> CAT is designed so that only certain kind of ppl succeed.

aabe o kaalia , kitne baaje?
ah! i should be posting on the insomnia thread!


chow!

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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 14-03-2006, 12:54 PM

hi everybody...

like many of u i also believe that past acads shouldnt come in between the calls 4rm IIMs.
wid my personal ex i can say dat not necessarily all top scorers in coll or schools hav very gud aptitude thus can b good managers. most of the time in colleges or schools its all ut hard work n hard work, but when it comes to crackin CAT or other MBA exams its more ut attitude, smartness of distributin time to diff sections n focus which accordin to me neone(avg to top scorers) can do.

hope it makes some sense....
bbyeee for now
c ya
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinh - 18-03-2006, 10:05 AM

hi ppl

So quality takes over quantity and i guess thats why the dean has said "past acads doesnt matter ".tht somewat reliefs the tension.but is it same with other iims and b schools .guys enliten plz
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 18-03-2006, 07:43 PM

hi everybody......


yah wot ut other iims n mba colleges, they see the past acads or not????:
hope to have interviews/articles etc on that

waitin for some more

tk care
bbyeee
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 23-03-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mice
hi everybody...

like many of u i also believe that past acads shouldnt come in between the calls 4rm IIMs.
wid my personal ex i can say dat not necessarily all top scorers in coll or schools hav very gud aptitude thus can b good managers. most of the time in colleges or schools its all ut hard work n hard work, but when it comes to crackin CAT or other MBA exams its more ut attitude, smartness of distributin time to diff sections n focus which accordin to me neone(avg to top scorers) can do.

hope it makes some sense....
bbyeee for now
c ya
yaa u r rite......Infact I m also an engg ,....nd most of the Sem- exams( u have to appear for 45-50 exams to complete ur engg) r rattafication only( yaa nd i mean it) nd in lots of school ,college nd even in engg Insti ... profs r biased( i m not telling that all of them) nd ur grades r decided by them only ...infact this year i got through nmims nd durin my GD/PI round i found that ur acads point r goin to be decided by ur %age ...nd i had the worst situation coz i did my 10th in 12th from UP board( guys who r from UP board can understand that wot it takes to get 75% in that board) nd durin my engg too i had 72% ( topper had 80%) nd down south u can find lot of insti( not everywhere in south to be politically correct) where u dont have to do nething to get72%...so i got very less marks in NMims for acads nd i think lost the battel with few marks ...so whom should i ask ...so wot i personally feel that better judge A PERSON on the basis of xam ( if u cant then y the heck u r takin cat .ND WASTING JUNTA'S TIME ..) nd let the best junta clear the exam ...coz if somebody is telling thaty cant take a student who has 98.75,....then u can also go for a guy having 98.5 ( wots the diference b/w 98.75 nd 98.5)...so there should be some barrier /........infact the kind of Junta is there all we can wish is FOR more IIMS ..to get it clear by all good junta

nd guys who really boast of their acads nd work-xp ...go for GMAT coz GMAT gives a lot of weightage to these things too

so there is a place for everyone( who is good hoon) ..its upto junta to choose ...which path to follow to reach the destination.

cya
himanshu bajaj


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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 23-03-2006, 02:19 PM

Hi dudes,

I thought even I had to chip in and write in what I think is correct, my reply would be long... because I wish to touch on most aspects surrounding this as such. I have always faced some trouble or the other with this topic, discussing with my friends or anyone else. Because whichever college you take 10 out of 100 will be toppers and 20-30 avg guys and the others (70 odd out of 100) who do not concentrate on anything at all, other than enjoy their lives out. This is the general tendency of any human being I have seen till date. Every one has huge expectations from his/her career and wants to be in a very good position altogether. But, you know most of them do not wish to put in the required amount of effort either. For such kinda people undergraduate studies or anyother would not be interesting and would not concentrate that better and loose out the 3 or 4 years dismally. But aspirations do not die right, so what is the next easy route?? This person with dismal percentages cannot apply abroad for a MS or cannot opt for MBA abroad because they will be right away rejected in most of the good schools. Job finding is not that easy too... Then what is the best way out... And that is CAT. What is the reason??
1. The topics tested in the exam are fit to be tackled by a 10th or +2 guy not more than that.
2. Any person with an adequate preparation of 6 to 7 months can come out with flying colors.

Now, IIMs are such great institutions that they do not check anything else at level 1. Acads are considered only at level 2 ... Very great as such. Now filtering is done in the most idiotic way I suppose. If 90% of people who score great percentiles in CAT are ppl with an aggregate of 60% in their undergrad or grad studies then the competition for acads is among them and not with a person with a 90% undergrad score. Too great a filtering process. What does that mean? A person who was graded as a below average or less hard working student makes it to the level 2 of the process and a person who was deemed to be hard working stays behind in the race just because he/she happened to get a 98% instead of a 99%.

What does undergraduate score mean??
To most of the 70 students (out of the 100 in a university program) it means junk. Because if that is considered, they are out of the race. So, they would not like that score to the checked as such... And you see they are the majority of the chunk applying for CAT. So, out of the 1.8 lakh people if you interview candidates, most of them would say no to the acads being considered.

Added to that even coaching centers glorify this aspect by giving their own interpretations to the CAT exam. CAT tests your analytical skills, it sees and understands whether you are a real manager or not, whether you can think in tension etc etc. Really I never knew that undergrad study was so useless and CAT was really the GOD of all examinations. If that is the case please refrain from studying at all and just write CAT and keep showing that to everyone as your prowess and other stuff.

Once upon a time when the number of ppl applying for CAT was less, it would have made sense to clear the admissions based on CAT because of obvious reasons. But with huge chunk of people applying it makes sense for premier institutes like IIMs to follow the western standards rather than follow elementary school standards. What do I mean by that. A person apping to Harvard/Stanford or any other great school would not be shortlisted by Harvard/Stanford but it is the student himself who would decide for himself whether he is good for that school or not. How is that achieved? IIMs should not shortlist themselves based on the CAT score, but it is the student himself who would decide for himself whether he is good or not for an IIM. So, conduct CAT and give the percentiles. Then a student will apply to IIM with that score and his academic results and other related information just as anyone would apply to any other b-school using GMAT information. This would reduce the number of applications that an IIM would have to process and would also give them a better oppurtunity to scrutinize applications further. Also by eliminating a person with good overall performane and 98% in CAT from the process they are not even checking whether this candidate would be better than a normal 99%ile CAT and 40% avg candidate. Where is the correct decision being taken in such a case?

The most stupid and junk arguments are like this. 99% is better than a 98%ile what is the reason? Because he worked hard for 6 months only on CAT and nothing else (not even on studies) and flunked in two subjects but managed a good score in CAT. so he is determined about management. Really?? That person who got admitted himself into engg or any other discipline and flunked there with no interest is supposed to work wonders after getting into IIM? Either ppl in IIM should be nuts or ppl who are hard working are.

If they still consider CAT as a bench mark they will never ever get into the top 20 international MBA schools slot. Then coming to this argument here... "Since students with good percentages get jobs let those with bad ones get selected to IIMs", it is stupidity again dude. IIMs are the face of India in management... they should select the best out of the best and hence provide better quality students across the world. IIMs are here for providing good managers and not for social service. None of the universities across the world have such a bad admission process which concentrates on just one exam. And it is disheartening to see a professor from a so called premier institute downplaying the academic performance for CAT and that too by comparing a 40% student with a 80% person he is doing injustice and hurting the feelings of hard working students. Would he wish to talk the same way about students coming out from IIM after the course is complete... i.e. a person with 40% is same as a person with 80%. CAT is just for looking everyone from the similar plane. But it does not mean you undermine the academic performance totally. IIMs can take the reputation of the school for rigidity in schooling and other stuff to make a good decision than concentrating on one single exam and talking stuff like this in interviews.
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 23-03-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
Hi dudes,
Now, IIMs are such great institutions that they do not check anything else at level 1. Acads are considered only at level 2 ... Very great as such. Now filtering is done in the most idiotic way I suppose. If 90% of people who score great percentiles in CAT are ppl with an aggregate of 60% in their undergrad or grad studies then the competition for acads is among them and not with a person with a 90% undergrad score. Too great a filtering process. What does that mean? A person who was graded as a below average or less hard working student makes it to the level 2 of the process and a person who was deemed to be hard working stays behind in the race just because he/she happened to get a 98% instead of a 99%.


Once upon a time when the number of ppl applying for CAT was less, it would have made sense to clear the admissions based on CAT because of obvious reasons. But with huge chunk of people applying it makes sense for premier institutes like IIMs to follow the western standards rather than follow elementary school standards. What do I mean by that. A person apping to Harvard/Stanford or any other great school would not be shortlisted by Harvard/Stanford but it is the student himself who would decide for himself whether he is good for that school or not. How is that achieved? IIMs should not shortlist themselves based on the CAT score, but it is the student himself who would decide for himself whether he is good or not for an IIM. So, conduct CAT and give the percentiles. Then a student will apply to IIM with that score and his academic results and other related information just as anyone would apply to any other b-school using GMAT information. This would reduce the number of applications that an IIM would have to process and would also give them a better oppurtunity to scrutinize applications further. Also by eliminating a person with good overall performane and 98% in CAT from the process they are not even checking whether this candidate would be better than a normal 99%ile CAT and 40% avg candidate. Where is the correct decision being taken in such a case?

The most stupid and junk arguments are like this. 99% is better than a 98%ile what is the reason?

My friend I amnot trying to argue with you or debate also.. I have the following reasons for the system that is in place at the IIMs
If we dont want to interview everyone we HAVE to have a cut offf.. the cut off cud be 99 or 55 %ile but every time there would be the next student who is equally competent as the one before him who made the list...
Secondly I dont knowif u are aware but IIMs do not and i repeat DO NOT consider only ur CAT %ile for giving calls... There are students with 99.5+%ile with 1 or no call and there are those with 99.25% with 5 callss... So its not only the CAT %ile and nor is it the sectional scores....

When u say that IIMs shud not shortlist themselves, boss they are NOT!!

Every student who applies for the CAT exam has to fill in his choice.... (Q. 11) in the form for CAT 2005... You can very well decide to NOT apply at any of the 6 IIMs and still appear for the CAT using that score to gain admission into any college which uses the CAT scores for its admissions..... So my frined it is us the students who apply to the individual colleges b circling the names on the form .... PLEASE BE INFORMED ABOUT THIS





Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
If they still consider CAT as a bench mark they will never ever get into the top 20 international MBA schools slot. Then coming to this argument here... "Since students with good percentages get jobs let those with bad ones get selected to IIMs", it is stupidity again dude.
DONOT use your own judgement and speak from the top of your head. THere are enough umber of RAnkers and Toppers in all premier Bschools of India....

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
And it is disheartening to see a professor from a so called premier institute downplaying the academic performance for CAT and that too by comparing a 40% student with a 80% person he is doing injustice and hurting the feelings of hard working students. Would he wish to talk the same way about students coming out from IIM after the course is complete... i.e. a person with 40% is same as a person with 80%. CAT is just for looking everyone from the similar plane. But it does not mean you undermine the academic performance totally. IIMs can take the reputation of the school for rigidity in schooling and other stuff to make a good decision than concentrating on one single exam and talking stuff like this in interviews.

As far as the facult's statement goes it said that the panelists are not BIASED towards someone with a low aggregate in his graduation.. WHat he meant to say was that every student who clears the CAT has an equal oppurtunity and chance to clear the second stage.... BUT HE DID NOT SAY they cannot ask you academics or cuuriculum related questions...
Even for my IIM C interview I was asked why i have a low score in my 12th Standard exam and on giving a reason and telling the professor that I now know Economics he asked me no LESS thatn 7- 8 questions on economics.... thus I have the oppurtunity to prove my ability as anyone can score low marks in exams but it is important that you know about that subject as a whole and concpetual clarity exists....


So nirupam my friend I accept that the large number of applications lead to more broken hearts but it is a part of the Indian system and it doesnt get better than this You are free to go and apply to the world's best we are happy with our B Schools...
THANK YOU
OVER AND OUT
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 23-03-2006, 03:47 PM

Hi Pranav,

I am on some low work today. So just repping you on this topic again. Dude what do you mean when you say "If we dont want to interview everyone we HAVE to have a cut offf.. the cut off cud be 99 or 55 %ile but every time there would be the next student who is equally competent as the one before him who made the list...". You are not wishing to come out of that CAT Euphoria of yours I suppose. Cut offs are only talked about when you take only that test as a benchmark for that level. Have you ever seen any top b-school talking about a cutoff for GMAT score?

"I dont knowif u are aware but IIMs do not and i repeat DO NOT consider only ur CAT %ile for giving calls... There are students with 99.5+%ile with 1 or no call and there are those with 99.25% with 5 callss"

Yes I know that case... but that was not based on academic scores mind you. I have seen specific cases and there was only one possible reason behind that rejection that I have seen. The percentage of correct answers given... that is, how many mistakes did you make in the CAT paper. Except for that I have seen ppl with good acads and 99.5%ile not being called. Can you find any other reason for that??

Dude you are trying to teach me the application process... okay fine... "Every student who applies for the CAT exam has to fill in his choice...." when do you fill the choice?? Before the exam or after the exam?? Before means they shortlist you and after means you apply to them ... as simple as that... Do you see the difference now at least.

"Even for my IIM C interview I was asked why i have a low score in my 12th Standard exam and on giving a reason and telling the professor that I now know Economics he asked me no LESS thatn 7- 8 questions on economics.... ". I am not undermining your ability to prove yourself. But assume something here... I have already told you in my previous post that a person who has really struggled for 4 years for good academic performance is undermined because he happened to get a percentile lesser than a person who did not have that great an academic performance (everyone has his/her own reasons for that)... but that is not fair for a top B-School to do that(we are not talking about difference in percentile of person between 80%ile and 99%ile I am talking about 96/97/98%ile vs 99%ile... See the difference that prof mentioned about 40% aggregate vs 80% aggregate... which one is a better performance gauge as such??). Just because a person who was performing well over 3 to 4 years got a .25%ile less than another person you cannot conclude that person is not worthy enough than the selected candidate. If you really want to test him thoroughy give him a chance as equally as you are trusting a person with 40% aggregate and .25%ile more than that person with an 80% aggregate. I think you get my logic now... I do not intend to make you agree with me... but want you to look at my point and understand it properly.

Your last statement that "it is a part of the Indian system and it doesnt get better than this " sounds like... we Indians are like this and do not believe in making ourselves better and we will live like frogs in a well and nothing else... Great attitude to have as such... but not fit for a great manager/great institute I suppose.
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 23-03-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
Hi Pranav,
"If we dont want to interview everyone we HAVE to have a cut offf.. the cut off cud be 99 or 55 %ile but every time there would be the next student who is equally competent as the one before him who made the list...". You are not wishing to come out of that CAT Euphoria of yours I suppose. Cut offs are only talked about when you take only that test as a benchmark for that level. Have you ever seen any top b-school talking about a cutoff for GMAT score?
What i mean to say is that whatever the cut off bee.. the next person on the list will be equal to the last person on the list. SO if someone has 99.5 and anohter has 99.49 he is not less than the other guy. But the institute has to draw a line somewhere...
Take an example... If 99.4 is the cutoff and I crib that i had 99. 36 then is just LUCK and FATE.


You have to accept it... the only solution to this is to call all candidates for interviews....and some institutes are doing that... so thats another story completely different

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
"I dont knowif u are aware but IIMs do not and i repeat DO NOT consider only ur CAT %ile for giving calls... There are students with 99.5+%ile with 1 or no call and there are those with 99.25% with 5 callss"

Yes I know that case... but that was not based on academic scores mind you. I have seen specific cases and there was only one possible reason behind that rejection that I have seen. The percentage of correct answers given... that is, how many mistakes did you make in the CAT paper. Except for that I have seen ppl with good acads and 99.5%ile not being called. Can you find any other reason for that??
I dont want to FIND any reasons for this as the IIMs are using a criteria which only they are aware of.. So lets not debate on this and take it that they see more than your CAT scores.. what and how much of that is purely a figment of someone's imagination...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
Dude you are trying to teach me the application process... okay fine... "Every student who applies for the CAT exam has to fill in his choice...." when do you fill the choice?? Before the exam or after the exam?? Before means they shortlist you and after means you apply to them ... as simple as that... Do you see the difference now at least.
WHAT are you talking about dude... they shortlist you AFTER you apply to them... applying before or after an exam is purely a matter of reducing another step of administration. I know of many students who crib that XLRI earns double revenue by charging for the Exams and asking you to apply seperately... so that explains why the IIMs expect you to apply in the CAT form and avoid and further comunication

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
"Even for my IIM C interview I was asked why i have a low score in my 12th Standard exam and on giving a reason and telling the professor that I now know Economics he asked me no LESS thatn 7- 8 questions on economics.... ". I am not undermining your ability to prove yourself. But assume something here... I have already told you in my previous post that a person who has really struggled for 4 years for good academic performance is undermined because he happened to get a percentile lesser than a person who did not have that great an academic performance (everyone has his/her own reasons for that)... but that is not fair for a top B-School to do that(we are not talking about difference in percentile of person between 80%ile and 99%ile I am talking about 96/97/98%ile vs 99%ile... See the difference that prof mentioned about 40% aggregate vs 80% aggregate... which one is a better performance gauge as such??). Just because a person who was performing well over 3 to 4 years got a .25%ile less than another person you cannot conclude that person is not worthy enough than the selected candidate. If you really want to test him thoroughy give him a chance as equally as you are trusting a person with 40% aggregate and .25%ile more than that person with an 80% aggregate. I think you get my logic now... I do not intend to make you agree with me... but want you to look at my point and understand it properly.
DOst the professor is talking about the second round of admission i.e. the GD/PI so it has nothing to do with gving calls.. He means to say that at the interview stage students are not given prference for their better academic scores...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirupampratap
Your last statement that "it is a part of the Indian system and it doesnt get better than this " sounds like... we Indians are like this and do not believe in making ourselves better and we will live like frogs in a well and nothing else... Great attitude to have as such... but not fit for a great manager/great institute I suppose.

What will make it better is not changing the way it admits students.. What they do with the students after they get there and what the students do after THEY exit an IIM will change the way the world looks at us... SO lets not even go there and talk about not making ourselves better.... If we didnt wanna make ourselves better we would not be going through all these reforms that we are right now..
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Re: Past acads no cause for worry during admissions - IIM Calcutta's Prof Anup K Sinha - 24-03-2006, 10:30 AM

Whatever be the arguments. You have your own explanations and I have mine. So, I am not gonna write more here and btw your blog rocks.

Pratap.
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