Hello, I am an PG-old timer and landed up on PG on random googling. I read some of the messages on PG about US MBA and i dont think people have the complete information. I did my MBA from India and am working in the US for a while. Here’s wh…
Hello,
I am an PG-old timer and landed up on PG on random googling. I read some of the messages on PG about US MBA and i dont think people have the complete information. I did my MBA from India and am working in the US for a while. Here's what I sincerely feel and I hope it helps fellow Indians in making the right choice when it comes to their career!
- US education system is expensive even by US standards.
- The sub-prime crisis has fundamentally changed things.
- US MBA is good only for people who can afford to come back to India after their MBA i.e. spend in dollars and earn in Rs. Unlike in India, US bschools do not guarantee placements. Foreign applicants are already decreasing!
- US is getting increasingly protectionist and its not easy getting a job. Bank of America last year withdrew its offers made to foreign MBAs. This trend is likely to continue with TARP funds restrictions and in general slowdown in the economy.
- I read on PG that its easy to get loans. I think you need a US co-signer for a loan.
- MBA programs are not comparable to MS programs. MS has typically around 80-90% of foreign students and employers are still willing to sponsor H1B. MBA programs have typically larger batch size, larger population so there is a preference to recruit locals first.Most of the big guys are doing it. Moreover, small companies do not have the bandwidth to process visas, so they end up recruiting locals as well.
- Our MBA alumni group is flooded with CVs of people from US bschools, soliciting for internship or a job opportunity. This is quite an indication of the job market scene in US.
- Its difficult to enter the Indian job market after a US MBA because mostly all major companies have a fixed plan for their new recruits on their calendar. One-off recruitments are difficult. A second tier US bschool holds nowhere as compared to a tier I indian school even though the exposure in the later maybe better in terms of the quality of education.
- Indian MBA programs are more relevant to the Indian market so it makes sense to do an MBA in India if you plan to work here.
- US Immigration has changed the OPT status from 1 year to 3 months. Other intricacies you should consider are, a person on a dependent visa for H1B which is H4 cannot legally work in the US.
- With Indian and Chinese economy booming, the applications are as it is falling.
- For the past 2 years, a lot of Indian students even from top universities had to return home without a job. Also note that, even if you get a job in the US, you may still not get a visa and still would have to leave this country.
- Even from a top bschool in the US, you still need 4-5 years just to break-even.Do consider the risk that you might have to come back to India and earn in Rs to pay back that loan incase you manage to get one.
Here are some of my recommendations:
- Strongly consider getting into a top bschool in India. Dont apply to US just because you can't get into top indian b-schools. ISB or PGPX are great options for people with more than 5-6 years of workex!
- If you are interested in technology, go for an MS in engineering rather than an MBA. The start-up opportunities are great even today in US and India for technology start-ups.
- Foreigners are generally not preferred for jobs which require people skills or local knowledge like HR or Marketing. They are "ok" in technology and Finance. So if you are interested in marketing/HR it is highly recommended you look at indian bschools.
- Do not blindly follow the MBA consultants. Do your own research. I highly recommend the MBA section on businessweek.com
- If you are really keen on studying in the US, then have a look at niche courses like MS in Finance.
- I was talking to one of my seniors from my MBA college and he was doing his MBA from Wharton after 10 years of work-experience. Even this option can be explored if you are really keen.
- And lastly, an MBA is highly over-rated. Where you end up in life depends largely on you, so don't risk a bankruptcy right at the start of your career.
It's disheartening to see so many bright Indian students making the wrong decision. Talk to as many people as possible who are already WORKING in the US. Students on campus may not be a best indicator of the things to come as they themselves are not sure what their fate is going to be!
I hope this helped!
Best of luck everybody! 😃
Hello,
I am an PG-old timer and landed up on PG on random googling. I read some of the messages on PG about US MBA and i dont think people have the complete information. I did my MBA from India and am working in the US for a while. Here's what I sincerely feel and I hope it helps fellow Indians in making the right choice when it comes to their career!
- US education system is expensive even by US standards.
- The sub-prime crisis has fundamentally changed things.
- US MBA is good only for people who can afford to come back to India after their MBA i.e. spend in dollars and earn in Rs. Unlike in India, US bschools do not guarantee placements. Foreign applicants are already decreasing!
- US is getting increasingly protectionist and its not easy getting a job. Bank of America last year withdrew its offers made to foreign MBAs. This trend is likely to continue with TARP funds restrictions and in general slowdown in the economy.
- I read on PG that its easy to get loans. I think you need a US co-signer for a loan.
- MBA programs are not comparable to MS programs. MS has typically around 80-90% of foreign students and employers are still willing to sponsor H1B. MBA programs have typically larger batch size, larger population so there is a preference to recruit locals first.Most of the big guys are doing it. Moreover, small companies do not have the bandwidth to process visas, so they end up recruiting locals as well.
- Our MBA alumni group is flooded with CVs of people from US bschools, soliciting for internship or a job opportunity. This is quite an indication of the job market scene in US.
- Its difficult to enter the Indian job market after a US MBA because mostly all major companies have a fixed plan for their new recruits on their calendar. One-off recruitments are difficult. A second tier US bschool holds nowhere as compared to a tier I indian school even though the exposure in the later maybe better in terms of the quality of education.
- Indian MBA programs are more relevant to the Indian market so it makes sense to do an MBA in India if you plan to work here.
- US Immigration has changed the OPT status from 1 year to 3 months. Other intricacies you should consider are, a person on a dependent visa for H1B which is H4 cannot legally work in the US.
- With Indian and Chinese economy booming, the applications are as it is falling.
- For the past 2 years, a lot of Indian students even from top universities had to return home without a job. Also note that, even if you get a job in the US, you may still not get a visa and still would have to leave this country.
- Even from a top bschool in the US, you still need 4-5 years just to break-even.Do consider the risk that you might have to come back to India and earn in Rs to pay back that loan incase you manage to get one.
Here are some of my recommendations:
- Strongly consider getting into a top bschool in India. Dont apply to US just because you can't get into top indian b-schools. ISB or PGPX are great options for people with more than 5-6 years of workex!
- If you are interested in technology, go for an MS in engineering rather than an MBA. The start-up opportunities are great even today in US and India for technology start-ups.
- Foreigners are generally not preferred for jobs which require people skills or local knowledge like HR or Marketing. They are "ok" in technology and Finance. So if you are interested in marketing/HR it is highly recommended you look at indian bschools.
- Do not blindly follow the MBA consultants. Do your own research. I highly recommend the MBA section on businessweek.com
- If you are really keen on studying in the US, then have a look at niche courses like MS in Finance.
- I was talking to one of my seniors from my MBA college and he was doing his MBA from Wharton after 10 years of work-experience. Even this option can be explored if you are really keen.
- And lastly, an MBA is highly over-rated. Where you end up in life depends largely on you, so don't risk a bankruptcy right at the start of your career.
It's disheartening to see so many bright Indian students making the wrong decision. Talk to as many people as possible who are already WORKING in the US. Students on campus may not be a best indicator of the things to come as they themselves are not sure what their fate is going to be!
I hope this helped!
Best of luck everybody! :)
Wow very helpful thanks
Could U plz tell about the MS in Finance in Europe
Please throw some more light on this.
Puys who are applying for US MBAs from India..Comment plz !!
@UnRegMBA
Excellent post, one of the finest I've read anywhere, not just PG.
I think for a lot of Indians, it becomes a matter of prestige to tell people that their son/daughter is studying in 'Harvard' or 'Wharton'. The only colleges in India that evokes the same kind of awe are IIM-A,B, and C.
Even ISB, which is in the same league as IIM-A,B,C doesn't evoke the same kind of reaction or awe because many people, especially those not keyed into the Indian education scene, know about ISB. Same goes for FMS - I was actually asked by a few people if FMS is like a branch of Amity or something :).
But of course, even your grandmother might have heard of Harvard!
UnRegMBA,
Good write up, but most of the articles are dated early to mid 2009 (one from 2007), while we are now in the fag end of 2010.
Would be able to point to more recent reflections on your observations? That'll provide a more substantial basis to the relevance of your observations as of today.
Thanks again!
USA is not the golden land of oppurtunities rather its not as good as before.
I dont know why indian students think usa = $$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you are really keen on studying in the US, then have a look at niche courses like MS in Finance.
I was talking to one of my seniors from my MBA college and he was doing his MBA from Wharton after 10 years of work-experience. Even this option can be explored if you are really keen.
And lastly, an MBA is highly over-rated. Where you end up in life depends largely on you, so don't risk a bankruptcy right at the start of your career.
Agree with this 100 %, MBA is more for the tag. MS in finance is more intense and the syllabus has more finance content plus it has got a good job market.
Agree with almost all the points. Finally somebody is posting some sense!!!
The post relies on old information and news which isn't relevant anymore. For example, non-US co-signor loans are back at US b-schools. Or that placements have improved. Take even the following statement:
Even from a top bschool in the US, you still need 4-5 years just to break-even.Do consider the risk that you might have to come back to India and earn in Rs to pay back that loan incase you manage to get one.
The loan duration taken for a full-fee IIM education usually goes beyond 6 years (similarly for MICA, IIFT, MDI, etc). So... if you are breaking even in the US in 4-5 years, it's unbeatable.
The author is misinformed, badly researched and using stale news to drive home a point that he seems irrationally biased towards. It seems like he wanted to show that US education is useless, and selectively chose only those links that will prove his point and then put a misguided post here. I usually am not wont to fisking, so won't do a point-by-point refutation. Leave it to the rest of the readers to research/Google for themselves and discover the sheer emptiness of the thread starter's argument.
I agree onto the fact that the starter post is a little biased.
This is one of the most important posts I have ever read.....Be warned.
Take the info seriously and be careful in making your decisions. I am sure you have talked to your uncles, aunties and a ton of seniors who say that the market is back on track and that there are plenty of jobs available. I am also sure that you have heard about your cousin's best friend's girlfriend's brother getting that great job in New York for a $100000 signing bonus.There are chances like that.But pure luck and timing determine those.Not your Hard work, talent or qualifications.
I am not being a pessimistic jerk and trying to scare people.If your smart enough to do an MBA or even considering to do an MBA, I am sure you are open to the reality of the situation.
Okay, guys relax.Everyone is going to be just fine. If you are projecting your career to be over the next forty years, most of the job growth and high salaries are going to be in India and China. It is true that the international students are having a real tough time finding jobs in the USA. Most of the companies are not willing to sponsor the work permits and H1-B visas for the international MBA students. According to the Dean at Wharton 70% of the international MBA students are returning to their home countries after getting their MBA degree. This link is here
MBA salaries remain on course Top MBA
But it is also true that the MBA salaries in India, China, Hongkong, Singapore are rapidy catching up to the MBA salaries in USA.
For Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, INSEAD, Columbia, LBS, etc. the following are the average MBA salaries (in actual terms, not in PPP terms).
India: $63,000 (Rs. 27 lakhs)
China (Beijing, Shanghai): $100,000 (RNB 700,000)
Hongkong: $110,000 (HK$770,000)
Singapore: $110,000
USA: $120,000
Europe: $120,000
The salary links are below:
MBA Salaries in Asia Pacific Top MBA
Data & Statistics - MBA Recruiting - Harvard Business School
INSEAD - MBA Programme - Download Centre
2009 Wharton MBA Career Report
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/employmentreport/docs/2008-2009%20Employment%20Report.pdf
So long as you get the MBA from a top ranked school, you are going to get a good job (maybe not in USA, but definitely in India) and you will be able to recover your loan money.
The important thing to note is that the salaries which you will get with MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton, INSEAD are just a little bit higher than the salaries which the general category students at IIM-A,B,C get and you have to take into consideration the fact that the IIM students do not have any work experience and you people with the Harvard MBA and 5 years pre-MBA work experience will be earning the same salary as the general category students at IIM-A,B,C.
Of course, if you go to a low-ranked school, then you will definitely not get a job in USA and you may even have a tough time to get a job in India.
I should disclose that I did my PGDM at IIM-Bangalore and PhD in Finance from a top-ranked school in USA. This is just an unbiased viewpoint to help you in your decision-making and what you can expect.
The important thing to note is that the salaries which you will get with MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton, INSEAD are just a little bit higher than the salaries which the general category students at IIM-A,B,C get and you have to take into consideration the fact that the IIM students do not have any work experience and you people with the Harvard MBA and 5 years pre-MBA work experience will be earning the same salary as the general category students at IIM-A,B,C.
You have to take into consideration that even at the IIMs the best salaries go to people who have some work experience, and MBAs give you little advantage in the entry job market if you do not have industry experience. So definetly doing MBA from IIMs is quite good but there is absolutely no substitute of work experience, and the best is 2-4 years.
The important thing to note is that the salaries which you will get with MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton, INSEAD are just a little bit higher than the salaries which the general category students at IIM-A,B,C get and you have to take into consideration the fact that the IIM students do not have any work experience and you people with the Harvard MBA and 5 years pre-MBA work experience will be earning the same salary as the general category students at IIM-A,B,C.
More than the salary, the real value of a MBA from a college like Harvard is networking. While IIM alumni is great, it is largely India centric. Moreover, IIMs have been around for just 50 odd years. Colleges like Harvard have been around for centuries, and some of the most influential men and women in the world have studied there. The power of this network of people can't really be measured in monetary terms.
And then there are the people. IIMs are colleges with limited students, most of them from similar backgrounds (i.e. engineering). Wharton, HBS, etc. are parts of vast universities with thousands of students from very, very different backgrounds, who are some of the smartest people on the planet. Even the MBA classes at these colleges will have people from dozens of different countries. The kind of intellectual stimulation this can afford you can't be matched.
Let us be a bit honest here and give credit where it is due. IIMs are great institutions, but can't be compared to a storied institution like Harvard. The utility of an education should not be judged purely in terms of salaries, but in terms of the actual impact not only on your career, but also on your outlook, your worldview, and your personality.
I think if someone is looking for ROI only then India is the best place to do and MBA or even the colleges in south-east Asia.
People do MBA from US/UK etc more so because of a diverse peer group, learning that comes from an international perspective, work in a global region and many other factors.In the long term its the individual who needs to decide what he really wants.Money is a factor but is surely not the only factor.
Above all the most important factor which I think matters is that where you want to work after an MBA.Most of the BSchools have case studies based on the region they are located predominantly.So US MBA is good for people who want to work in US and might want to settle there too as an option plus all the things I said above.
Moreover you can always return to your homeland but its not that easy to go to a foreign country easily.So considering long term factors in important.
To end , as some wise man had said "Doing MBA is the second most important decision of one's life and like the first decision one shouldn't compromise on it"
I am appalled by the sheer hubris with which you have written the post. As someone who calls himself the editor of pagalguy which is a user-driven forum, I am not sure why you think you have the authority to shoot down a well-research view point. The view point relies on some research as opposed to your argument "because I say so!".
Also, the break-even period for US MBA is 4-5 years on an average, if you earn in dollars. If you spend in dollars and earn in Rs, then definitely this will not hold true. The whole point of the post was to ensure that students know for sure what they are signing for.
I did mention that, the quality of education from a tier II US bschool will definitely be better than from a tier I Indian institute. Remember, these are the people who have shaped modern management education as we know it. The catch here is that, an US MBA may not guarantee you a job in america and may not guarantee a great job in India either. If you can take such kind of risk, then it makes sense to go ahead.
I had also mentioned in the article that, there is a fundamental change in how things operate. If you claim that my research is outdated, here are two links posted 22 hours and 3 hours ago.
In Tough Job Market, B-Schools Let Employers Weigh In - WSJ.com
For MBAs, Breaking Even is a More Distant Dream - BusinessWeek
Also, when I was in a b-school I didn't even imagine about a concept called unpaid internships. A lot of 1 year MBA students or MBA graduates are now working for companies, essentially for free to get the necessary experience and try to convert the internship into a full time employment opportunity. Already, you have reeled up heaps of student debt, and now you are burning up some more money after you graduate? Doesn't make too much sense to me.
Also just by preparing for GMAT, or concentrating on writing essays you are going to get nowhere close to the real problem: immigration. US immigration is one of the most complex system in the world. When you are appearing for your student visa interview, it is expected that you will return to your own country after completing your education. That's what you have essentially signed up for. Neither the university nor the US government promises you anything more. If you do get a visa sponsor, then great. If not, you have to do what was expected out of you in the first place: go back!
The idea is to have the humility to learn. If you have such kind of attitude where you try to shut people up just because your half-baked thoughts say otherwise, then its going to be really tough for you.
And if people are really keen on learning, the internet is a great leveler! In the next 50 year, it will not matter where you studied. All it will take, is to have the right attitude and the humility to learn. Do check out youtube EDU for some great learning videos:
http://www.youtube.com/edu
Best of luck everybody! :)
The post relies on old information and news which isn't relevant anymore. For example, non-US co-signor loans are back at US b-schools. Or that placements have improved. Take even the following statement:
The loan duration taken for a full-fee IIM education usually goes beyond 6 years (similarly for MICA, IIFT, MDI, etc). So... if you are breaking even in the US in 4-5 years, it's unbeatable.
The author is misinformed, badly researched and using stale news to drive home a point that he seems irrationally biased towards. It seems like he wanted to show that US education is useless, and selectively chose only those links that will prove his point and then put a misguided post here. I usually am not wont to fisking, so won't do a point-by-point refutation. Leave it to the rest of the readers to research/Google for themselves and discover the sheer emptiness of the thread starter's argument.
Read businessweek and new york times EVERYDAY, if you are serious about coming to US. Make an informed decision based on your appetite for risk.
If your family is in the leagues of Tatas, Birlas, Ambanis, then you can definitely go ahead. For middle-class India, you will have to do a lot of research.
UnRegMBA,
Good write up, but most of the articles are dated early to mid 2009 (one from 2007), while we are now in the fag end of 2010.
Would be able to point to more recent reflections on your observations? That'll provide a more substantial basis to the relevance of your observations as of today.
Thanks again!
Yes, even US is fearing that it is slowly losing its image as the land of opportunities and they are losing their edge as the country which produces cutting-edge research. There are talks of providing green cards directly to PhDs, but there is no good news on the MBA front. In fact its more of a bad news for MBAs with restrictions on whom companies can employ.
USA is not the golden land of oppurtunities rather its not as good as before.
I dont know why indian students think usa = $$$$$$$$$$$$$
If you are really keen on studying in the US, then have a look at niche courses like MS in Finance.
I was talking to one of my seniors from my MBA college and he was doing his MBA from Wharton after 10 years of work-experience. Even this option can be explored if you are really keen.
And lastly, an MBA is highly over-rated. Where you end up in life depends largely on you, so don't risk a bankruptcy right at the start of your career.
Agree with this 100 %, MBA is more for the tag. MS in finance is more intense and the syllabus has more finance content plus it has got a good job market.
Agree with almost all the points. Finally somebody is posting some sense!!!
Have you ever participated in a group discussion before? Saying you are wrong is not enough. You have to logically put forth your point which in this case is missing completely!
gamer SaysI agree onto the fact that the starter post is a little biased.
Yes, please do not base your decisions on exceptions or based on the money that people stand to earn.
I have heard so many people who want to get into MBA to be investment bankers because of all the free publicity which our newspapers have given to the profession based on the crore salaries. They are exceptions and hence they make news. Also note, you will really be miserable if you do not enjoy what you do!
This is one of the most important posts I have ever read.....Be warned.
Take the info seriously and be careful in making your decisions. I am sure you have talked to your uncles, aunties and a ton of seniors who say that the market is back on track and that there are plenty of jobs available. I am also sure that you have heard about your cousin's best friend's girlfriend's brother getting that great job in New York for a $100000 signing bonus.There are chances like that.But pure luck and timing determine those.Not your Hard work, talent or qualifications.
I am not being a pessimistic jerk and trying to scare people.If your smart enough to do an MBA or even considering to do an MBA, I am sure you are open to the reality of the situation.
Yes, you will get a job in India if you do your MBA from Harvard or Wharton. But at the end of it, you will feel that you have not made full use of your potential. The journey towards the MBA is nothing but a journey of dreams. You feel that at the end of the day, you will be a management consultant in new york city. If you end up in Mumbai, you will have to learn to live with it and not be too harsh on yourself.
Moreover, you will never really learn india-centric things like rural marketing in US. Marketing to the villages in India is totally different than marketing in US where organized retail accounts for 97% of the market. In India, the figure is less than 3%. Your US education will be great, but it also has to be applicable to the job you are applying for in order to get selected.
Okay, guys relax.Everyone is going to be just fine. If you are projecting your career to be over the next forty years, most of the job growth and high salaries are going to be in India and China. It is true that the international students are having a real tough time finding jobs in the USA. Most of the companies are not willing to sponsor the work permits and H1-B visas for the international MBA students. According to the Dean at Wharton 70% of the international MBA students are returning to their home countries after getting their MBA degree. This link is here
MBA salaries remain on course Top MBA
But it is also true that the MBA salaries in India, China, Hongkong, Singapore are rapidy catching up to the MBA salaries in USA.
For Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, INSEAD, Columbia, LBS, etc. the following are the average MBA salaries (in actual terms, not in PPP terms).
India: $63,000 (Rs. 27 lakhs)
China (Beijing, Shanghai): $100,000 (RNB 700,000)
Hongkong: $110,000 (HK$770,000)
Singapore: $110,000
USA: $120,000
Europe: $120,000
The salary links are below:
MBA Salaries in Asia Pacific Top MBA
Data & Statistics - MBA Recruiting - Harvard Business School
INSEAD - MBA Programme - Download Centre
2009 Wharton MBA Career Report
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/employmentreport/docs/2008-2009%20Employment%20Report.pdf
So long as you get the MBA from a top ranked school, you are going to get a good job (maybe not in USA, but definitely in India) and you will be able to recover your loan money.
The important thing to note is that the salaries which you will get with MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton, INSEAD are just a little bit higher than the salaries which the general category students at IIM-A,B,C get and you have to take into consideration the fact that the IIM students do not have any work experience and you people with the Harvard MBA and 5 years pre-MBA work experience will be earning the same salary as the general category students at IIM-A,B,C.
Of course, if you go to a low-ranked school, then you will definitely not get a job in USA and you may even have a tough time to get a job in India.
I should disclose that I did my PGDM at IIM-Bangalore and PhD in Finance from a top-ranked school in USA. This is just an unbiased viewpoint to help you in your decision-making and what you can expect.