hello… da voice of India… :: * its time get out of our shells nd start raising our opinions… come on ppl of Gujrat* its high time u said somethin… its ur cause it affects u da most so whose side r u on *Medha Partkar, BJP-(…
moderators close this thread i was editing nd it got created thrice... so cloce da 1st 2 nd leave the last one thanks
Its great news that Ms Patkar has called off the strike in the wake of a very promising SC ruling which states that "if the work on rehabilitating those displaced by the Sardar Sarovar dam was not done properly, it will have no other alternative but to stop the construction of the dam."
It has been proved beyond doubt that big dam's lead to more trouble than progress and the fact that they do more harm than good is no longer just conjecture.It has been estimated that 30 million people in India have been displaced because of big dams ( and thats a pretty conservative estimate ), and still the country does not officially have a National rehabilitation policy which is absolutely ridiculous.
We moan about we are a developing economy, and how we are going to industrialize and how we are going to contruct more SEZ's etc, and all the while we'll be displacing poor village folks whos only source of income might be that very land that we'll take from them.In the absence of a comprehensive rehabilitation policy these folks are usually given money, and not a lot at that anyway, but for a poor family a sum of money isn't going to compensate for source of income.With their education levels (again blame the govt ) they can't find jobs in the secondary/tertiary sector and soon after spending the meagre amount that they got from the government they go back in the census as BPL families.
A neo-ludite approach towards progress isn't exactly what we want, knowing our size, our resources and our requirements we are quite a unique case, so maybe, some dams are good for us but the government isn't the best educated enitity to decide that (The Sardar Sarovar dam, although, is an economic, technological, ecological, and human disaster in the making).Let the scientific and ecological community come together and decide that for us.The govt should meanwhile work on a comprehensive national level rehabilitation program, and thats for all kinds of people who get displaced in the various creative ways we decide to screw nature in the path of our selfish progress.
It was just last year when tribals in Orissa were shot at by the police for failing to vacate land that was meant for a steel project (It was a tad more complex than that ) and we cannot let a situation like that arise once again.An incident like that will only provide more steam to the maoist movement, and that one can have severe political implications.
Pleasure,
Naviin.
Ps : On a personal note, i observed a solidarity fast on the 13th and that wasn't very easy, i salute a Ms Patkar for her unerring conviction and steadfast determination.In a country where we've run out of heroes, we need more of people like her.
It has been proved beyond doubt that big dam's lead to more trouble than progress and the fact that they do more harm than good is no longer just conjecture.It has been estimated that 30 million people in India have been displaced because of big dams ( and thats a pretty conservative estimate ), and still the country does not officially have a National rehabilitation policy which is absolutely ridiculous.
We moan about we are a developing economy, and how we are going to industrialize and how we are going to contruct more SEZ's etc, and all the while we'll be displacing poor village folks whos only source of income might be that very land that we'll take from them.In the absence of a comprehensive rehabilitation policy these folks are usually given money, and not a lot at that anyway, but for a poor family a sum of money isn't going to compensate for source of income.With their education levels (again blame the govt ) they can't find jobs in the secondary/tertiary sector and soon after spending the meagre amount that they got from the government they go back in the census as BPL families.
A neo-ludite approach towards progress isn't exactly what we want, knowing our size, our resources and our requirements we are quite a unique case, so maybe, some dams are good for us but the government isn't the best educated enitity to decide that (The Sardar Sarovar dam, although, is an economic, technological, ecological, and human disaster in the making).Let the scientific and ecological community come together and decide that for us.The govt should meanwhile work on a comprehensive national level rehabilitation program, and thats for all kinds of people who get displaced in the various creative ways we decide to screw nature in the path of our selfish progress.
It was just last year when tribals in Orissa were shot at by the police for failing to vacate land that was meant for a steel project (It was a tad more complex than that ) and we cannot let a situation like that arise once again.An incident like that will only provide more steam to the maoist movement, and that one can have severe political implications.
Pleasure,
Naviin.
Ps : On a personal note, i observed a solidarity fast on the 13th and that wasn't very easy, i salute a Ms Patkar for her unerring conviction and steadfast determination.In a country where we've run out of heroes, we need more of people like her.
HAil our Supreem Court!!!...again justice delivered to perfection.....
My first bet as a gujjrati is tht...this is awesum news for all the people of Rajasthan n Kuthch that their life line is not gonna get derailed jus b'coz sum people think tht this project is not feasible...
People who look at it with a very biased approach do not know the ground realities surronding this beautiful project which would facilitate drinking water for more than 10 crore INDIAN's.....yes a few people would get displaced n yes progress comes at a price....but we alwys tak abt emulating the chinesse growth rate...arent we aware tht to build a dam...the chinesse goverment completely displaced a whole city....
The point here is...the govt defintly needs to do the needfull for the people who r gonna be affected...n yes the goverment is doing it...and thr's always a scope for further improvement....
Besds....except MEdha PAtkar(She is the sole true philantropist there...) pepl like...Arundhati ROy(boy she should first learn proper hindi....she must not be understanding wat the hummble adivasis of narmada valey want....she...on national television asked a media reporter the meaning of the word"tathya"...man...),,,,n Mr Aamir Khan(Yes an awesum actor...but wat does he say...he is supporting a cause he isnt aware of....one day he's with NBA n 2nd time he's with Supreeme Court....i dnt think the supreeme court needs a Aamir Khan to support its views)...these people bcoz of the celeb status they njoy go n misuse their AIRTime...MissRoy goes on air saying the govt is siding with fascisct forces...Ohman!...now watever Modi does is fascisim...dose she not know the meaning of this word...y oh y...do they always wanna play the mionrity card...I dnt think going on Fast for the support of DAm which would serve the need of both Hindus n Muslims is fascism...Miss Roy plzzz grow up...we've done 1 mistake of reading ur stupid, vulgar novel...thanx a lot...enuf is enuf....
Besds,...Mr Soz(the so called Water Resource Minister of the country) wat was his ultimate logic in saying tht as an exofficio chairman of the reivew committe would suggest to stop the construction n then leave it to the PM...dsnt he have brains...tht he dse not have this right...he's just a Ex-offico chariperson....man now isnt this Fasicism....wonder if he would have done the same if sumbdy else was the Cheif Minister say sum MR Khan...or sumthin....
Plzz its a request to all the pseudo secularist forces grow up....everythin tht modi touches isnt abt fasicim...dnt frgt the state of Gujrat is the most progressive state of the country...n the least corrupt...hail MR Modi...yes thr were certain mistakes....but then who in india can claim tht they are completely clean...LEts face it...Mr Modi is the Best Administrator in the country...and let us leave him alone so tht he can take gujrat to a further level.....
And yes my heart also goes out to MEDha PAtkar(19 days of no food for sum strangers she met on a journey called life) and her adivasi crussaders....may law do complete justice with them.
well... its nice to see dat ppl have actually replied... i thought yeh thread kabhi aage nahi badega...
well also with u guys having such strong views regarding me makes me feel proud dat yes ...we can make some diff
@sag22ar------
well dont u feel dat MR. MODI made a complete mockery of himself by fasting... his fast seems to be nothin more dan a political agenda......
wen MR. cm goes on a fast..TAMBOO SHAMBOO GAADE JAATE HAI....there is so much of unnessary wastage of money... nd wot does he do.. keep a 51HR fast... man he also knows dat he wont die nd da judiciary will come up with a solution b4 his 51 hrs r completed......
ALL POLITICS..... ...
SC is commendable for upholding the importance of rehabilitation, but there is a darker side to the whole rehabilitation debate which mostly goes unreported. Sardar Sarovar has one of the most generous rehabilitation schemes in the world. Why is it still controversial?
This is what happens. Acc to Sardar Sarovar's rehabilitation offer, every person in the submerged area who is a major citizen on a certain 'freeze date', say April 5 1999, is to be given 5 acres of land. Typically, say if a family of 6 has 3 majors, they will each get 5 acres.
But then if two more members of this family are just 2 years away from turning 21 yrs old, it is to their advantage to get the freeze date postponed by two years so that they too get their 5 acres. So they turn to NBA activists, who do these local level demonstrations & petition district courts complaining about the 'quality' of rehabilitation, resulting in a stay on rehabilitation activity. By the time the court ruling gives a clean chit to the rehabilitation officials, 3 years have passed and 5,000 more people have turned eligible to get 5 acres of land. A separate petition is launched in district courts asking for rehabilitation for this new lot of 5,000. Court gives ruling in their favour and govt is faced with the problem arranging land for 5 grand more, all for the interests of a few. Then Medha Patkar goes onto a fast crying hoarse about the lack of rehabilitation work and the nation, which has never seen the ground realities, turns hysterical with her.
Rehabilitation cannot go on in such an environment and the govt is not entirely to blame. But who is ready to listen to all this amidst the hysteria created by Medha Patkar/Arundhati Roy and now Aamir Khan?
One may ask what is NBA's motive behind doing this seemingly pointless activity? For that one has to understand that NBA activists too have kitchens to run at home and kids to grow. If they give up these causes, who will pay for their kids' school fees? Moreover, if Medha doesn't oppose
the Dam, who will invite her for international conferences in Stockholm and Mexico and Kyoto?
How do I know all this? I was one of the few reporters post-millenium to have extensively traveled that region for months, esp during the submergence of Harsud town. Sadly, most journalists who write about Narmada Dam have never been there on the ground and understand what realyy is going on.
@apurv
if wotever u sayin holds true.... den i guess a true picture of dis should be brought out in front of da ppl...
truth shld be told.. nd make dese ppl stop dis nonsense.... hey nd 1 more thing if u were a journalist i guess den u can help bring out dese ground realities....
every1 seems to using dis cause 4 deir own benefit...
i really hope the SC comes up with something really sensible nd beneficial to da ppl of dis area
if wotever u sayin holds true.... den i guess a true picture of dis should be brought out in front of da ppl...
truth shld be told.. nd make dese ppl stop dis nonsense.... hey nd 1 more thing if u were a journalist i guess den u can help bring out dese ground realities....
every1 seems to using dis cause 4 deir own benefit...
i really hope the SC comes up with something really sensible nd beneficial to da ppl of dis area
NOW ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THE FACTS BEHIND THE SARDAR SAROVAR PROJECT.
THE PROJECT IS CALLED A LIFELINE FOR PEOPLE OF GUJARAT AND ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY. GUJARAT IS A STATE WHICH HAS ONLY 2 YES, ONLY 2 BIG RIVERS WHICH FLOWS FOR WHOLE YEAR ROUND, TAPTI AND NARMADA. ALL THE OTHER RIVERS FLOW WELL IN MONSOON BUT IT DRYS UP BY THE END OF WINTER AND THAT ALSO WHEN THE MONSOON IS GOOD.
THE AREA OF SAURASHTRA AND KUTCHH AND THE AREAS OF NORTH GUJARAT ALONG THE BORDER OF PAKISTAN ARE DRYAND ARID. THERE IN THOSE AREAS THERE LIVES AROUND 3 CRORE PEOPLE. FORGET ABOUT IRRIGATION, THEY DONT EVEN HAVE ADEQUATE PURE DRINKING WATER. WATER IS NOT ONLY SCARSLY AVAILABLE BUT ALSO IT IS FULL OF FLOURIDE, WHICH MAKES FLOUROSIS VERY COMMON IN THOSE AREAS.
THIS IS WHY THE NARMADA DAM IS SO IMPORTANT. ONE MUST THINK THAT WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT? DRINKING WATER FOR 3 CRORE PEOPLE OR HOMES OF A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE?
HERE I AM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT BE COMPANSATED BUT ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE TASKS SHOULD NOT STOP THE WORK WHICH IS GOING TO HELP 3 CRORE PEOPLE OF GUJARAT AND 2 CRORE IN RAJASTHAN TO GET PURE AND SAFE DRINKING WATER.
THE PROJECT IS CALLED A LIFELINE FOR PEOPLE OF GUJARAT AND ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND WHY. GUJARAT IS A STATE WHICH HAS ONLY 2 YES, ONLY 2 BIG RIVERS WHICH FLOWS FOR WHOLE YEAR ROUND, TAPTI AND NARMADA. ALL THE OTHER RIVERS FLOW WELL IN MONSOON BUT IT DRYS UP BY THE END OF WINTER AND THAT ALSO WHEN THE MONSOON IS GOOD.
THE AREA OF SAURASHTRA AND KUTCHH AND THE AREAS OF NORTH GUJARAT ALONG THE BORDER OF PAKISTAN ARE DRYAND ARID. THERE IN THOSE AREAS THERE LIVES AROUND 3 CRORE PEOPLE. FORGET ABOUT IRRIGATION, THEY DONT EVEN HAVE ADEQUATE PURE DRINKING WATER. WATER IS NOT ONLY SCARSLY AVAILABLE BUT ALSO IT IS FULL OF FLOURIDE, WHICH MAKES FLOUROSIS VERY COMMON IN THOSE AREAS.
THIS IS WHY THE NARMADA DAM IS SO IMPORTANT. ONE MUST THINK THAT WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT? DRINKING WATER FOR 3 CRORE PEOPLE OR HOMES OF A FEW THOUSAND PEOPLE?
HERE I AM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD NOT BE COMPANSATED BUT ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE TASKS SHOULD NOT STOP THE WORK WHICH IS GOING TO HELP 3 CRORE PEOPLE OF GUJARAT AND 2 CRORE IN RAJASTHAN TO GET PURE AND SAFE DRINKING WATER.
Has anybody read the Algebra of Infinite Justice by Arundhati Roy? A very good book that talks about dams their effects and also has the NBA thrown in. Is the book biased? I dont know. She supports her statements with facts. Are these facts the gospel truth? Again, I dont know. But the book was interesting because i learnt something from it. When I was in school, a Christian Brothers boarding school, i met a couple of Brothers there, who had been to Gujarat and had seen the rehabilitation process. They had mentioned that despite the rehabilitation being generous, more often than not, it was delivered very late. Then the land allotted wasnt fit for cultivation. And asking them to give up their roots and go settle some place else could hardly be deemed fair now would it? Also, instead of the dam and the money spent on it, other irrigation projects could have been completed in the time and at lesser cost that would have given all the benefits that are supposed to be given by the dam.
Any idea why the World Bank has withdrawn from the project? And why do we not hear about dams being constructed elsewhere or drawing so much criticism.
Apurv, dont you think you are being overly harsh on the NBA activists. Sure some people are trying to take advantage of the 5 acre thingy but what about the rest? Those that wont benefit? And Arundhati Roy hardly needs the money now does she?
SC is commendable for upholding the importance of rehabilitation, but there is a darker side to the whole rehabilitation debate which mostly goes unreported. Sardar Sarovar has one of the most generous rehabilitation schemes in the world. Why is it still controversial?
But then if two more members of this family are just 2 years away from turning 21 yrs old, it is to their advantage to get the freeze date postponed by two years so that they too get their 5 acres. So they turn to NBA activists, who do these local level demonstrations & petition district courts complaining about the 'quality' of rehabilitation, resulting in a stay on rehabilitation activity. By the time the court ruling gives a clean chit to the rehabilitation officials, 3 years have passed and 5,000 more people have turned eligible to get 5 acres of land. A separate petition is launched in district courts asking for rehabilitation for this new lot of 5,000. Court gives ruling in their favour and govt is faced with the problem arranging land for 5 grand more, all for the interests of a few. Then Medha Patkar goes onto a fast crying hoarse about the lack of rehabilitation work and the nation, which has never seen the ground realities, turns hysterical with her.
Rehabilitation cannot go on in such an environment and the govt is not entirely to blame. But who is ready to listen to all this amidst the hysteria created by Medha Patkar/Arundhati Roy and now Aamir Khan?
Apurv, believe you to a great extent and am sure most of the issue might be about the NBA people supporting the issue to run their kitchens, But considering the long history of neglect when it comes to rehabilitation, The people cannot but believe whatever the NBA people would say.
You know rhetoric gets more coverage then the truth.
---Asif
I have always felt that charity is a farce...
The best part is the sort of amusing antics that our politicians n actors..n activists put up for our daily dose of entertainment.
Medha patkar goes on a fast....and we have a counter medha fast by narendramodi...I simply love the guy...he is an ass...he makes no bones abt it.
Then again poor aamir...:-| high on the RDB note , suddenly remembers i m a citizen of india too....only to get kicked right and left by raging gujju fans...
Democracy says its meant for the people, by the people, of the people.
Let us practice what we preach. Democracy should not mean water for thousands and depravity for a couple of hundreds.
But let not democracy encourage the chicanery thats goes on on the name of activism.
Jaago India Jaago!!
-zong
I read somewhere that History is the biased account of what the winners wanted to keep for posterity, not what needed to be kept.
Facts and statistics are not biased. They are just numbers. How you interpret them is the question.
If you wear green coloured glasses, White will appear green. If you wear red, it'll appear red. But it is still White. What you see depends on what you want to see, and what you're looking at, not what actually is. Hitler did this in Mien Kampf, and the result was the Holocaust. Arundhati Roy has done the same, by not looking at the facts as facts alone, but as something that supports what she already has accepted as concrete.
My father had visited Medha Patker's workshops in Gujarat some years ago, and he came back impressed. The work done by her organisation is awesome, to say the least. But that does not mean that she is the only one who thinks well of the people there. The government is not out there to think of only the rich, and bypass the poor. It has to work, look at the future, and see what needs to be done where.
If by building the dam over the Narmada, three states are going to benefit, then, by all means, go ahead. If a few million need to be rehabilitated, understand the fact that hundreds of millions are going to benefit as well.
What unfortunately has occured is that everyone has lost the sight of the forest for its trees. Looking at the micro arena has not helped the macro picture. If you look at the big picture, then smoothen the parts that are not balanced, and a cohesive, complete society will emerge, with everyone being happy!!
Regards,
Harshal,
Grondmaster
SC is commendable for upholding the importance of rehabilitation, but there is a darker side to the whole rehabilitation debate which mostly goes unreported. Sardar Sarovar has one of the most generous rehabilitation schemes in the world. Why is it still controversial?
It is controversial because it has never been implemented. The govt washes its hands off by giving 14000Rs. cash and tells to find land on your own. This, despite repeated recommendations by various experts that cash compensation is a recipe for disaster as far as rehabilitation is concerned.
NBA is not protesting against the increase in height of the dam. They are asking to "implement" the rehabilitation "schemes" BEFORE the construction happens. Which is what the supreme court had ordered. Although Medha patekar has her own views against large dams, thats a debatable issue. And I don't believe that NBA has started "crying horse" only recently. Although I will happy to be corrected.
Apurv, I have not been to the region like you have been, and that probably gives you the right to discredit my opinion, but I think your remark about NBA being in it for money is a bit immature. It would take a lot more than an invitation to some unknown international conference in some unknown part of the world to make someone struggle for 20 long years like NBA has.
well, the supreme court judgement comes as a relief,
ending the farce which is going on since the past
few days.
modi is at it again. no matter how much u hate the dude,
u have to admit he is a gr8 strategist. completely manipulating
the situation to his advantage. even the congress in gujarat is
whining now that modi sidelined them on the issue.
although i love arundhati roy's writing, i dont understand what
she is doing here. and aamir khan, well he had some valid points,
but the media took it completely out of context.
medha patkar is the only person who needs to be admired here.
imagine going for a 20 day fast. and for whom. those ppl we indians,
ya WE indians love to ignore.
there should be no doubt that the dam needs to be built. what the heck,
it is more or less complete. actually the height is 110 mts. but
rehabiliatation must happen.
p.s. well, i dont know if what apurv says is true or not. but guys,
take a rational approach. nothing can be treated in black or white.
its pretty much more complex
If by building the dam over the Narmada, three states are going to benefit, then, by all means, go ahead. If a few million need to be rehabilitated, understand the fact that hundreds of millions are going to benefit as well.
I believe what NBA is saying is why rehabilitation is an afterthought in such development projects. Are people asking for proper rehabilitation against the development of the nation ?? It's easy to label the activists as retrogade thinking, obstructing the progress of the nation because that wins you mass support immediately.
Someone please correct me on this: NBA is asking for proper implementation of the supreme court's order which said that satisfactory rehabilitation should happen before the dam height is raised again.
and one more thing....
arundhati roy wants ppl to build only small dams, no
big dams coz...blah blah
only 1 problem here...
WHAT THE F*** do we do with Sardar Sarovar Dam????
I believe what NBA is saying is why rehabilitation is an afterthought in such development projects. Are people asking for proper rehabilitation against the development of the nation ?? It's easy to label the activists as retrogade thinking, obstructing the progress of the nation because that wins you mass support immediately.
If things were let be, as they were, there would be no need for threads like this one. For every development projects, people, especially the lower economical classes, are going to be affected. They will be rehabilitated, that is the primary clause in any project: Help those affected. Return their lives to them, what they are losing due to progess.
Then what impedes? I'd say two things: Corruption, and Celebrity-ness. Corruption amongst the project makers & the powers that be ensure that the money earmarked for rehab goes into their pockets. The other headache is when NGOs with no sense of ground reality jump in, as if they're helping the affected persons. But hte only thing they're doing is ensuring that the column centimetres you get in newspapers increase substantially.
Not that Medha Patkar is a media hungry person. She is committed to what she preaches. I have seen what her organisation does. But when there is something around her, and the Narmada, that is going selfish on a very high note, and ensuring that a decent cause for concern, one that is being addressed, gets blown out of proportion and thus is demeaned in the process.
Regards,
Harshal,
Grondmaster
I think dam on Narmada will bring prosperity to the region. Lot of thought process has got into it. But it has and will displace countless inhabitants and they need to be adequately compensated. But you know guys our netas want a lion's share of all dhans!!, so they consumed compensation money.
Kudos to medha patekar for raising a storm for genuine cause. I know MM singh will come out with the best solution.
abhishek
Kudos to medha patekar for raising a storm for genuine cause. I know MM singh will come out with the best solution.
abhishek
grondmaster SaysThen what impedes? I'd say two things: Corruption, and Celebrity-ness. Corruption amongst the project makers & the powers that be ensure that the money earmarked for rehab goes into their pockets. The other headache is when NGOs with no sense of ground reality jump in, as if they're helping the affected persons. But the only thing they're doing is ensuring that the column centimetres you get in newspapers increase substantially.
Really appreciate your views. I'm not blindly supporting NBA. All my views and opinions are based on second-hand information, and I give them due weightage depending on the credentials of the source. It's just that the MP government's track record has been a lot shadier than NBA's.
Atleast it taught me that association of celebrities with an organisation might give people another stick to beat them up with.
