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repeat posr
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so mention the reasons of your selection.
:boat:
Dude,
some of your points are valid (not all, i wont get in to it). Just wanted to give you my opinion on it.
I guess we all need to look at ourselves and our society that we live in before making generalized statements about IIM's.
First of all you dont need to be an IIM grad to start a company(there is no rule that says so), so if doing business is your sole aim, might as well look at other avenues aside from getting an MBA. MBA can give you exposure and skills, but what you do with them is totally your call. Also, enterpreneurship is a state of mind and aspirations, which come naturally to a person and no B school can instill that into you(a place like an IIM or ISB can again expose you to options on how to go about it, but if you dont want to walk that path, then why would you look at it). B school is not a place which says that our aim is to make people business men/women, its a place which give you a platform to expose yourself to skills and perspectives which you might have not otherwise seen. What you do with it, is your own call.
Secondly, i think Indians do suffer from the riskless mentality, atleast compared to peers outside of india. And alot of this is to do with our socio economic history(sure we are a developing nation and an emerging economy, but lets get the facts straight we are no USA where you are protected by a social security system if you are jobless, and taking a break from your career or being laid off from your job are not perceived as signs of your incapabilities). I guess to produce more enterpreneurs one needs to change the way we as students look at the world outside and how the world outside(i.e. Industry) looks at us. I am encouraged to see that this trend is now tending towards people respecting what others have done with their time irrespective of success and failure, but we still have a long way to go.
Third, most of us get brought up in a world where its formost to be "well settled" (meaning have a good job in a well known place with a good pay) to be looking up in the society for purposes of respect, lifestyle, perception and ofcourse "Marriage". And for most of us these things are of prime importance and hence the rush to ensure that we achieve all this rather than spend time risking something.
In the end, I think its perceptions and not schools that matter and it is that which needs to be changed for our B schools (not just IIM's) to churn out what is perceived as diversity and value creating in terms of post MBA careers. and when i say diversity i mean enterperneurs, social-non profits and normal good ol' people who take up jobs.
thanks
Nishant
The main question remains unanswered. Which is better, considering the
saketverma24 SaysThe main question remains unanswered. Which is better, considering the costs are same now?
the answer is- Is there a fixed answer?
I think its your own aspirations, you know what are the strengths of each and weak areas of each, you know what each offers and dosnt offer. You decide what you want.
Its like any other choice you make if you are a passive user, there are points to be considered in everything you choose and a single place will not offer you all, so you prioritize and compromise (assuming you are in that position), and make the best decision.
Saket,
Keeping my situation/preferences/perspectives i would prefer ISB, NUS,NTU in the order.I was an aspirant for IIM, 5 years ago when i had passed out my engg college, but with experience and some globe trotting, i realise MBA is more about networking and learning from peers. ISB with 560 students provides the platfrom and so does NUS & NTU( with international students)
IIMS with limited bacth strengthe of 50-80( mainly indians, mainly IT guys) do not give that kind of exposure,which i am looking at. Its more about giving a brand name.
its just my perception, and i speak from Exp, Cos the Guy who i replaced in my current job was an ISb alumnus, wherein i dont have "Branded" degree to boast.
Also lot depends on individuals priorities.
I have rated ISB higher than others because, Hyderabad as a city me perfectly fine( mY wife is an IT proff,she can seek a transfer to HYD),wherein Ahmedabad, lucknow, Calcutta do not suit me.
Well some points you make are valid, some eye opening and some seemed cynical(no offence meant)
After visiting top schools in UK and India, I do beleive that the level is totally different and Indian schools are catching up. ISB is the supreme example of the best Indian B school with global acceptance. great lakes is catching up too.
It all depends in choosing the school suited to you, ask any Desi MBA applicant (well most of em) IIM's is still a dream. It gets him a ticket to make big bucks and improve the standard of living which I think is still the biggest motivation factor for any Desi MBA applicant. So IIM suits to quell that desire perfectly.
My vote ISB because simply its worth the hype.
Hi Trex,
king.
Reason is simple,Till now we were a closed community-with goals,focus,achievements all pitted in inidan perspective, but with opening up of economy post 1991, we have started going global. Time is not far when more Colleges/Univ like ISB would further improve the standards and hype and the students would be in a postion to choose, that is when we would be in a position to Compare apples to apples.
Right now in indian context it is demand to supply issue
Hi Trex,
Both IIM and ISB are good schools. but now their cost is same as NUS,Nanyang,HKU,HKUST. Now since NUS,HKU are considered much better universities on an international level, they offer better MBA programs with better diversity and opportunities than IIM/ISB.
Tell me why ISB is better than other asian schools.
what you r saying is- andhoo mein kaana raja (one with one eye is king among the blinds)
we do not have good educational institutes in India (I am from a top class medical college of India and my college will not rank in the first 90% of medical schools of US and Europe and Asia combined)
thats why a young institute such as ISB with a one year program(they do not even call it a MBA) IS getting all the attention and is the king.
They not calling it an MBA is for different reasons all together. Which is if you get AICTE accredation only then u can issue a degree named MBA but then you have to follow stuff like 50% reservations. (correct me if I am wrong). To put things right, quality of education wise AIM Manilla is one of the top 5 in the world. I have friends in IIM who went there on exchange who swear by it. AIM's case's for case studies are comparable to Havard. But AIM is still picking up on placement side which is not as comparable to likes of ISB and IIM's(till now but i have heard its comin up). Every school needs to improve over some aspect.
So again ISB for me is the only institute which caters to world class campus. Great international faculty. Great ROI in terms of the sector I intend to target post MBA (-Strategy consulting- none HKU NUS or any asian school is better than ISB in getting jobs in Consulting) and great place for my spouse to be. It just fits the bill perfectly (ISB adcom are u listening ;);)). So for me and many like me there is no doubt that one would chose ISB over NUS HKU and others. The Hype must be backed by solid performace else the hype dies down very soon.
I agree with some of your points there is need for improvement but dismissing Indian institutes altogether I cannot buy that. And as most people say choice of B school is a personal choice...
Well on another note the best campus for learning in India has to be Infosys Mysore... jus google for pics... believe me none better than that and they train 10000 together...beat that...:laugh:
(No offence meant)
Peace out....
world top 200 universities- harvard at no.1 , HKU at 18, NUS at 33, HKUST at 53, Nanyang at 69.Only the ISB is in an international ranking (FT), that's because the others don't satisfy one eligibility criteria to be part of the survey - namely, requiring a specific amount of work-ex before applying.
I am sorry but no Indian university in top 200.
Well you can always say that IIM grads get in as "Analysts" or "Senior Analysts" compared to Wharton/Harvard guys getting in as "Associates". Have you tried to compare the pre-MBA work-ex of both populations? I am sure you will find your answer there.
For me, the target schools in India would be IIMA (PGPX, not PGP), and the ISB. Maybe IIMC's PGPEX after a couple of years once the statistics come out. I could go on and on about the reasoning, but let me keep it as brief as possible.
IIMA PGPX: IIM's brand name. Second, first hand accounts from alumni who happen to be people whose opinions I can trust. Third, the placement for PGPX is customized to individual profiles, unlike the mass recruitments for PGP.
ISB: It's a not-for-profit organization created by the industry leaders in India. Faculty from all over the world - meaning you get exposure to different "cultures", however limited. The placement record is good too. Again, on the lines of PGPX, they have started customizing placements for people with 7+ yrs of experience.
As far as other colleges in Asia are concerned - I do not wish to work in SE Asia, hence I'm not considering that at all.
Colleges in Europe - I do not wish to take my family to a continent with high racial intolerance. Believe me, it exists. The relative exception would be the UK. LBS ruled out because I do not wish to go into Finance. For someone interested in the LBS, the silver lining is that once you graduate from their MBA program, you automatically get a work visa - read this on the LBS website.
US: H1 issue. What will you do if you do not get the visa? You will have to pack up and leave in a matter of days. What about the loans you have to repay?
Canada: Heard that it's tough for aliens to get jobs. Unable to find further info as yet. However, I've also heard that you get a work permit after graduation - not sure about it though.
As far as scholarships/financing international MBA is concerned, do not be too worried. There are trusts like the Paras Education Foundation Trust which give you no-collateral loans for foreign studies. Similary the top-15 colleges in the US have such programs too.
Hope the rant was helpful.
Cheers
Just add to the discussion.
I think we as indians are too "numbers centric" and tend to ignore the soft aspects of being an MBA and managers.
Surely, there must be another side of the whole story apart from all the racial and visa issues showcasing why we get to hear all such stories about people not getting employed(atleast not to their liking) inspite of having good B school degrees.
Also, and again a personal point of view, What is the level of our exposure as indians to MBA as a profession, lots of our folk walk into b school interviews wanting to be investment bankers or consultants, is it a genuine interest or just the herd mentality chasing money(i wonder how many will quote investment banking as a career now that will be interesting).
I say this because i really liked one part of the explanation given in this forum about Indians being hired as Analysts and number crunchers as opposed to becoming real managers and leaders.
Opinions solicited.
Dunno... the soft aspects should be inculcated by the organization or school. But not sure whether I agree with you on this or not.urefriendforeve SaysI think we as indians are too "numbers centric" and tend to ignore the soft aspects of being an MBA and managers.
Surely, there must be another side of the whole story apart from all the racial and visa issues showcasing why we get to hear all such stories about people not getting employed(atleast not to their liking) inspite of having good B school degrees.The US H1 issue is well known. There are more no. of applicants than the visa quota. Yes, there's a separate quota for people for graduate study from the US, but last year even in that quota the no. of applications exceeded the visa limit. With these restrictions, it's risky turf - unless of course you get more clarity on the placements for aliens outside the US. The Chicago GSB site says 55% of international students were placed outside the US. Good, but until I find more detail on what kind of companies from outside the US are interested, I'm not buying.
On the racial issue - I've experienced it firsthand, in the US as well as in Europe. Of course, it is not explicit as in the pre-independence era, but it does leave a bitter taste in your mouth at the end of the day. If I've to go there for a week or two for business meetings, I'll manage. But if I've to stay there, I'm sorry, I am not interested. But who knows, maybe I'll go as an exchange student to someplace, actually find my opinions reversed and decide that it's not a bad place at all? After all, my bad experiences were only in 3 countries.
lots of our folk walk into b school interviews wanting to be investment bankers or consultants, is it a genuine interest or just the herd mentality chasing moneyIMHO, I think it's the latter.
The great part about IIMA's PGPX and ISB's PGP is that for the first couple of terms, there are no electives. Also, you get to meet people from almost every career path/industry. This gives you a good platform to understand the life in various careers, so that by the time you have to choose electives, you are ready. Of course, I'm not sure you can say this in an interview!
Cheers
Dunno... the soft aspects should be inculcated by the organization or school. But not sure whether I agree with you on this or not.
The US H1 issue is well known. There are more no. of applicants than the visa quota. Yes, there's a separate quota for people for graduate study from the US, but last year even in that quota the no. of applications exceeded the visa limit. With these restrictions, it's risky turf - unless of course you get more clarity on the placements for aliens outside the US. The Chicago GSB site says 55% of international students were placed outside the US. Good, but until I find more detail on what kind of companies from outside the US are interested, I'm not buying.
On the racial issue - I've experienced it firsthand, in the US as well as in Europe. Of course, it is not explicit as in the pre-independence era, but it does leave a bitter taste in your mouth at the end of the day. If I've to go there for a week or two for business meetings, I'll manage. But if I've to stay there, I'm sorry, I am not interested. But who knows, maybe I'll go as an exchange student to someplace, actually find my opinions reversed and decide that it's not a bad place at all? After all, my bad experiences were only in 3 countries.
IMHO, I think it's the latter.
The great part about IIMA's PGPX and ISB's PGP is that for the first couple of terms, there are no electives. Also, you get to meet people from almost every career path/industry. This gives you a good platform to understand the life in various careers, so that by the time you have to choose electives, you are ready. Of course, I'm not sure you can say this in an interview!
Cheers
Well
Soft aspects i think need to come from within as well, and not just the schools or organizations and it boils down to ones perceptions on looking at things --- some tend to look at a micro point of view and some tend to look at things within a macro scope...as i see it, one can get away with being specific as junior or initial levels, but as one progresses further one needs to be able to detach oneself form specifics and reconcile more and more perspectives...its really a personal call....people do really well as experts and analysts working on specific things( i know even analysts need to look at surroundings...but again within limited scope), where as some go higher and reconcile....its a difficult one to explain, i guess its the feel factor.
US visa rules (and for that matter any other developed country abroad) do introduce an element of risk..i totally agree....but then going abroad is always been a risk...one cannot say that its more difficult today and was eaiser in the years gone by(each generations has its own sets of issues)...i have relatives and friends who have been very very successful in the US and Europe (people who went a long time ago and people who went in the recent past)....and have not faced too much racism (at least overt...subtly yes but then one needs to understand what one is willing to go thru and how much do other people outside the scope ones friends and family matter)...I have worked in the US and Europe and did feel discriminated but not because of my race but because of my profession (IT services sector, being asked to work on odd days and odd hours...but that again happens in india as well)...i had some very good relations with managers and made some friends with whom i have kept in touch with even now...so one really needs to consider a personal and a broader perspective on topics such as racism (hell i am a north indian and i used to get jeers from people in bangalore...and have never been shy of giving it back to them....its how you deal with it)...
Career choices (Ibanks etc), you are right one cant unfortunately say this in the interview...because the irony is, you are expected to know what you want to do, and in reality most of us end up following the safer route and grab what comes to us (dont know about IIM, but i know for sure about ISB'ians)....so what is a fair answer to the question Why do i need an MBA...if i really need a genuine answer to this question i need to have exposure i.e work experience of a number of years....but then i am also expected to be flexible ...cant be too rigid..... and ofcourse leaving MBA for too late comes with its own complications.
On the other hand with very little experience and exposure how can i be sure that i want to be an investment banker where as i have always worked as a C programmer in computer networking domains? But we have cases of people who with very little experience have done it successfully...
My conclusion, look within yourself, see what you want....and then speak it out.....whatever be the response...your honesty is your best chance....