First a clarifications on aspirants:
Geniuses means people like Bill gates, Jack Welch and Henry Ford. These personalities are too few and spread across time. Except average, all the categories I mentioned, such as BS, AS and IS are by all means brilliant people, who continuosuly strive to excel. Only average would qualify for people who might be happy settling down in middle management.
Since the possible combinations in framework I proposed are many, I would attempt to illustrate them one at a time.
Combination1
Input: BS - Balanced personality student
Output: Corporate success
Question1: Is BS alone sufficient to get Corporate success
Analysis1: Yes, I think so. Data shows that there are good pool of non MBA brilliant people in senior management positions in different industries.
This leads us to second point under discussion. That is, what is the value mba provides to BS category.
1. We learn lot of things while on job by trial and error. Learning happens but it is unstructured. It might
take six months of effort to get a mangement insight. But n a business school, same learning can
happen in a structured manner. One also gets time to reflect and absorb the learning. I would illustrate
the difference with the help of analogy. Some of us would have tried doing pull ups in gym. It is
difficult, and requires lot of persistence to do good number of them. By trying it alone we would for
sure do them. But have you noticed the difference when a coach supports you just a bit by supporting
your waist. The difference is right their. A little support and our performance improves faster. I see
learning in mba with the help of faculty in similar light.
2. Now a put a BS with another BS, let them compete/collaborate for an year. What is the output? I am
sure both BS's would have learnt few tricks from each other.
3. Brand/Tag: Brand helps in a similar way a packing helps in getting customer attention. No doubt a good
packing by itself is not sufficent but if the object packed has substance the combination is a winner.
BS + MBA is a same combination.
To conclude, I think MBA from a good college has value for an BS for corporate success. It would equip him for challenges and open up few doors (which otherwise would have required extra effort).
Next: I would illustrate my thoughts on whether mba adds value to a BS for an Entrepreneurial success
Comments on above analysis are welcome.
I think the question about whether an MBA is a reality or just hype is different for different people. I think people should first define why they want to do an MBA. If the reasons go something like "For a fat pay package" or "as every1 else is doin so.." or "I see no other option" then i think its just the hype of an MBA.
But an MBA can be a reality.. if done for the right reasons and from the right institute!!
but then again this is just a personal opinion...
I came across an article, which delves into "Practicality of the lessons that b-schools impart". Author is an MBA from IIM C.
Excerpts :
----------------------------------------------------------------
Philip Delves Broughton is a journalist who went to study at Harvard Business School...lashed out at his alma mater and at B-schools in general:
"Time after time, and scandal after scandal, it seems that a school that graduates just 900 students a year finds itself in the thick of it.... "
"Given the present chaos, shouldn't we be asking if business education is not just a waste of time, but actually damaging to our economic health?"
Is there something seriously wrong with B-school curricula and the attitudes that B-schools inculcate? Broughton cites HBS case studies that failed to pick up signs of trouble: Enron and Royal Bank of Scotland. How come a school that purports to teach general management failed to see the gaping problems at these firms, Broughton asks.
Case studies at B-schools are intended to focus on a corporate situation and stimulate discussion on various approaches to it. They are not meant to be judgements on a company. Nor do B-school faculty profess to offer ideal solutions in class.
The two years at an IIM gave me a broad understanding of different functional areas - finance, marketing, operations - and a grasp of strategy. These are things that people learn over several years in a business and a B-school helps abbreviate the learning period.
Both B-schools and society at large need to be modest about what B-schools can achieve. To expect B-schools to produce a wonderfully balanced, caring and socially responsible person is sheer delusion. You can't expect B-schools to succeed where Buddha, Jesus and Vivekananda failed.
------------------------------------------------
Here goes the article :
Crisis: Are B-schools to blame?- T T Ram Mohan-Columnists-Opinion-The Economic Times
You may find author's blog and few books by Philip Delves Broughton interesting.
The Big Picture
Philip Delves Broughton Books - Ahead Of The Curve: Two Years At Harvard Business School, Philip Delves Broughton books in India, Philip Delves Broughton Books at the Online Book Store of Rediff Books
My 2 cents
A little bit of history (please check this as I could be wrong) - If I remember correctly Peter Drucker, widely regarded as the patron saint of MBA education, was the one who had come to the conclusion that there existed such a thing as management in a firm that differentiates itself from the regular workers. He asked the legendary Alfred Sloan of General Motors (GM) (I bet he is turning in his grave to see what is happening to GM today!) to let him study his management of the company and then sat down and crystallized his lessons into his (I think) first book on management. His main argument was that while leaders may not be created (a point that is still being debated about the innateness of leadership), it is possible to create a reasonably efficient manager. Hence, I think it is vital to gain some work experience before getting an MBA because if you want to master something, then you need to have taken some time learning it as well!
Also, MBA sort of prevents reinventing the wheel by passing on the knowledge of others who excelled in this game!
So I do believe an MBA confers the possibility and not the probability of a person's success as a MANAGER! There are certain things it can teach about ROI, ROE (and I am not saying a proactive person can't teach himself that, but it is the same as saying that by studying Newton, Einstein and other greats one can become an engineer, so why go to an engineering school), basic HR, some OB, Marketing and other tricks of the trade. Now I think the problem boils down to people's expectations, and some have rightly pointed out in this forum, that one needs to do some introspection to find out why they want to do an MBA! Most people see the headline grabbing salaries of an off-the-chart IIM grad and start dreaming about the Ferrari in the garage and the personal Gulfstream V 😃 which are not bad goals in of themselves but one needs to ensure that they are aware of the possible pitfalls in this road to success! I also agree that it makes most sense to get an MBA from a reputable program (and I leave that open to people's interpretation of what constitutes the term reputable) so as to add the greatest value to their existing assets! I think it is a sad case that demand far outstrips supply and fly-by-night operators take full advantage of the situation and always manage to rope in some poor sucker! I guess PT Barnum still lives on beyond his grave 😃 To be quite honest, I am going for an MBA for the credential and I told the interview panel as such, and I guess they liked my honesty and gave me a shot at it 😃
I came across an article, which delves into "Practicality of the lessons that b-schools impart". Author is an MBA from IIM C.
Excerpts :
----------------------------------------------------------------
Both B-schools and society at large need to be modest about what B-schools can achieve. To expect B-schools to produce a wonderfully balanced, caring and socially responsible person is sheer delusion. You can't expect B-schools to succeed where Buddha, Jesus and Vivekananda failed.
------------------------------------------------
Here goes the article :
Crisis: Are B-schools to blame?- T T Ram Mohan-Columnists-Opinion-The Economic Times
You may find author's blog and few books by Philip Delves Broughton interesting.
The Big Picture
Philip Delves Broughton Books - Ahead Of The Curve: Two Years At Harvard Business School, Philip Delves Broughton books in India, Philip Delves Broughton Books at the Online Book Store of Rediff Books
I was touched by T T RamMohan's take on this issue. If a prof from IIM A comes out and suggests ppl to expect less from a B-school and more from the candidate, it shows how MBA is turned into a hype by society. An MBA is just a capsule that acts a tool for the man while he is entering in an organization. Definitely, it decreases the number of failures one comes across while making organizational decisions.
The greatest entrepreneurs in biz world were not always the products of biggest B-schools. All they had in common was a Quotient For Business. Today, when B schools are mushrooming at such a tremendous speed, it is now being expected from B schools to impart this quotient to candidate which in any case is a dream that will never be fulfilled.
My 2 cents
A little bit of history (please check this as I could be wrong) - If I remember correctly Peter Drucker, widely regarded as the patron saint of MBA education, was the one who had come to the conclusion that there existed such a thing as management in a firm that differentiates itself from the regular workers. He asked the legendary Alfred Sloan of General Motors (GM) (I bet he is turning in his grave to see what is happening to GM today!) to let him study his management of the company and then sat down and crystallized his lessons into his (I think) first book on management. His main argument was that while leaders may not be created (a point that is still being debated about the innateness of leadership), it is possible to create a reasonably efficient manager. Hence, I think it is vital to gain some work experience before getting an MBA because if you want to master something, then you need to have taken some time learning it as well!
Also, MBA sort of prevents reinventing the wheel by passing on the knowledge of others who excelled in this game!
So I do believe an MBA confers the possibility and not the probability of a person's success as a MANAGER! There are certain things it can teach about ROI, ROE (and I am not saying a proactive person can't teach himself that, but it is the same as saying that by studying Newton, Einstein and other greats one can become an engineer, so why go to an engineering school), basic HR, some OB, Marketing and other tricks of the trade. Now I think the problem boils down to people's expectations, and some have rightly pointed out in this forum, that one needs to do some introspection to find out why they want to do an MBA! Most people see the headline grabbing salaries of an off-the-chart IIM grad and start dreaming about the Ferrari in the garage and the personal Gulfstream V 😃 which are not bad goals in of themselves but one needs to ensure that they are aware of the possible pitfalls in this road to success! I also agree that it makes most sense to get an MBA from a reputable program (and I leave that open to people's interpretation of what constitutes the term reputable) so as to add the greatest value to their existing assets! I think it is a sad case that demand far outstrips supply and fly-by-night operators take full advantage of the situation and always manage to rope in some poor sucker! I guess PT Barnum still lives on beyond his grave 😃 To be quite honest, I am going for an MBA for the credential and I told the interview panel as such, and I guess they liked my honesty and gave me a shot at it :)
A bit of both !
@chandra
Mod Edit: Freedom of speech
chandra had every right to say what he wanted as long as he was not abusive or rude or flouted forum rules. I cant see any of that happening. chandra is free to express himself, howsoever he desires and he did. Fair enough to say that his post may not have contributed much to the discussion, but to make it personal was really uncalled for. Bandwidth really should not be of any concern to you. For that matter, you could have let it slide since your post contributed nothing either. Making it personal helps nobody.
I was touched by T T RamMohan's take on this issue. If a prof from IIM A comes out and suggests ppl to expect less from a B-school and more from the candidate, it shows how MBA is turned into a hype by society. An MBA is just a capsule that acts a tool for the man while he is entering in an organization. Definitely, it decreases the number of failures one comes across while making organizational decisions.
The greatest entrepreneurs in biz world were not always the products of biggest B-schools. All they had in common was a Quotient For Business. Today, when B schools are mushrooming at such a tremendous speed, it is now being expected from B schools to impart this quotient to candidate which in any case is a dream that will never be fulfilled.
GyanVikas: Your earlier post talks about a 'Quotient for Business'. Would be interesting to know how you define this term.
Continuing on Vader's earlier post, Philip Delves Broughton's book 'Ahead of the Curve' is an interesting take on life at Harvard. He pulls down the facade and shows the underbelly. It's a long, but entertaining account of his experience. He highlights some of the points that were listed on the original post of this thread as well.
Interestingly, the poll so far shows a pretty much balanced view. Half of the guys who've responded think it's reality and an equally strong group thinks otherwise. Unfortunately, the poll doesn't give an indication of the profile of people who think either ways.
It may not be unreasonable to expect that most respondents are prospective students and the number of alumni is lesser in comparison. Hope there's a good mix of the two going forward.
In my view MBA schools are the places where u get a polished end product. Its a place where ppl should go to hone there skills. Prerequisite is to have the skills. One cannot kill someone with a gun unless he has the bullet. Similarly one has to have the skills necessary to excel during his tenure at B-school and also as a leader. We are talking about innate qualities which cannot be sowed in in a person. If u doesnt have it u will never have it. And hence it is even more irrelevant for someone to join a B-School and expect to come out as a leader if. In my opinion Management is an art which can be learnt, preached and practiced only if u have the ability to assimilate it.
I agree that MBA has become a talk of the town and hence hyped by the society. Let's consider the Indian top 25 B-schools. Now these top 25 B-Schools can accommodate only few thousand candidates and rest are left high and dry (sarcasm). But it doesn't stop ppl from going out to options outside these 25 b-schools. In fact horde of ppl is seeking admissions in b-schools which are substandard. This is testimony to the fact that candidates (almost 50% and over) are willing to pursue MBA from any institute just for the sake of it. Intentions are not to derive any value or knowledge but to be labelled as MBA's. Even those joining the premier institutes do not have a clear cut idea of what they are doing. There are ppl from the same league who think that the only rational behind pursuing MBA is to get an impetus to their career and to draw fat salary checks. This is one way of looking at this issue which transpires me to say that MBA becomes irrelevant if one is not clear about the reasons for pursuing the same.
In my view MBA schools are the places where u get a polished end product. It's a place where ppl should go to hone there skills. Prerequisite is to have the skills. One cannot kill someone with a gun unless he has the bullet. Similarly one has to have the skills necessary to excel during his tenure at B-school and also as a leader. We are talking about innate qualities which cannot be sowed in in a person. If u doesn't have it u will never have it. And hence it is even more irrelevant for someone to join a B-School and expect to come out as a leader if. In my opinion Management is an art which can be learnt, preached and practiced only if u have the ability to assimilate it.
Harshad: You raise a relevant point when you say - 'Now these top 25 B-Schools can accommodate only few thousand candidates and rest are left high and dry'
The issue is many excellent candidates who can't be accomodated in the top-tier schools accept offers from their backup schools. However, on graduation, does that make a 99.5 percentile guy inferior to the one who got 99.9?
Unfortunately market perception is heavily biased in their judgement. So when it comes to average salaries, interview calls and post-MBA bliss - they all get influenced by the school name on the CV. Which is why the huge rush towards a few of the haloed institutions.
Hi everyone,
I really liked the above posts. Good work!!!
I am an MBA aspirant presently pursuing BBA. I did a extensive preparation for cat09 from oct 2008. MBA is a reality or hype? I would say its a hype.I would like to bring forward few points.
1. How Mr A(scoring 99.00%) is better than Mr B( 90.00 percentile): Is that Mr A has more risk taking ability,creativity,practicality,pragmatism,vision,leadership quality etc etc than Mr B.?
2. Being from technical background and being from humanities background: Is that all the qualities of a manager is in a technical background student and not in a humanities student ( because of B school preference)
3. Academics : Example: A boy has a concept ,ideas and enthusiam to create something new, he has the capacity to motivate people and take responsibilities.But he has average academics.Hence that guy wil not be able to get into a top b school.
A manager has to be logical, creative and pragmatic, well organised and the same applies to an entrepreneur. Essentially if someone has enthusiasm to work and has capabilities to come up with new ideas......then he /she don't needs a MBA from a top B school,that person will become successful neway. One has to have "interest" to do an MBA and a long term goal with it.One thing i agree with is that India is a developing country and it needs a lot of educated human resource.But that does not mean every one should go for an MBA ( with the dream of becoming a CEO). There is so many other option in India. India has Land,Population,Physical resources. So students of India can go for diverse career options some are Fashion Designing,Media Management, Advertisement ,Animation, Flim Making, Product Designing,Social work,Disaster management , Biotechnology, Mechanical field etc etc.So i believe one should go with their interest and passion .I am not telling MBA is not important. It is important. But one should think whether a MBA will help him in his career ,whether he is good enough to take responsiblity and where it will lead to.
regards
adi
MBA : Was a reality in past but a more of Hype now !
Everyone wants do be a manger/CEO. I can see a society where everyone wants to manage ppl but one day there will be no one to get managed. A country full of only managers and CEOs who can just plan and define the ways to work but no1 will be there to work 😛 Apologies for being sarcastic !
The value of MBA has really degraded! There was a guy from my Eng college who just did MBA for the sake of name.. after 3 years one day I got surprised when I saw him sitting at roadside at a sale-stall of some new low-grade product. One should always do something which he is good at! Should not move with crowd and hype..
As mentioned in some of the above posts, even managing ppl doesn't require an MBA. I totally agree to this and we have a lot of examples for that from our country and outside !!
This thread caught my eye and I had a pleasant read skimming through the discussions. With a few sidetracks for the GMAT v CAT, I think the thread has brought out some pertinent points which people consider when planning for the MBA; I agree with a few points and have my reservations on a few others, but will like to comment on the train of thought that previous posters have left with respect to school choices and metrics for judging programs that matter. To judge whether the MBA is worth it, I think it is important to first define what you are likely to take away from the experience?
Let me put forward my opinions in terms of certain points I feel are important for deciding to do the MBA and also from a career perspective. Since I am in the mood for some football, I will take a few footballing analogies and mix them into the argument to make it less boring ;)
Disclaimer: This is an idealistic post.
1. Rationale for an MBA and Social perceptions
Who are we to judge the rationale behind a person choosing a top 10 or top 100 or top 1000 school? Just as we aren't born the same, there are differing constraints or motivations for making career choices. The same goes for a "top" business school or an "average" business school. What would be an average business school for someone looking to become the CEO of a Fortune 50 company might well be a medium for someone else to go from an INR 3L salary to INR 5.5L which might be his goal which is met. So, I find comparisons to be non-essential and we really shouldn't be looking up or down upon different schools or its graduates. How does it matter what the person next to you is doing? Perhaps the third person in your group has a similar opinion about your motivations. Will that matter to you?
Case in point: People in India look up to cricketers. But if you do a pure monetary and fame analysis, a non-international football player in the top division of even a small country's club makes much more than what our cricketers do. And they have a fan following all across the world. Eg. Clubs like Boca Juniors, Fluminense, Gremio have players that true football fans all over the world follow and they make good money, even though most people in India haven't heard of them. Does that make Indians stupid because they don't usuall follow football and don't understand its reach? Everyone has their tastes, right?
2. Network
I know someone who gave two hundred and fifty job applications, failed multiple lucrative interviews for positions in Sydney, Hong Kong etc. and ended up landing a dream job in India when he exchanged ideas with a common friend of a friend about a new opportunity at the second person's firm. The two people were not from the same school and had connected in very trying circumstances when their common friend had a family emergency. The opportunity came up four years after they had been keeping in touch.
I have it on record from a student at one of the schools (lets call it U) I applied to that the alumni network at his (undergrad) school (lets call it Z) sucks.
Now, Z is considered a top, top F school, but are applicants really aware of its reputation for the network that so many people have stressed on? How many people are you going to know when you graduate? How well? What are the chances they will help you? Is your career completely dependent on this aspect? Are your perceptions of the worth of an opportunity (career/MBA/school) defined by your own touch points or by those around you?
Case in point: Top Champions League clubs poach the best players from little known clubs in Europe, South America and from around the world. These clubs send scouts to view the players before signing them. Not even a great player can send out a message to these clubs to say: "Hey! Take me" and be taken. The scouts word is the starting point. I personally feel if you are good at what you do you will have value. You don't need to hang onto some one's coat tails to go forward.
3. Salary, Prestige and Career focus
Does your salary define you? Will you be happy with USD 150k+bonuses v USD 100k+bonuses? The former is around the average salary at a "top" business school and the latter is around the average salary at an "average" school. Do you already know what you will do with the extra 50K USD per year or are you just assuming that more is better? Do you know what sacrifices you will need to make to earn that extra 50k USD in the short and long term? Do you know how gruelling it is to shift constantly and setup seven homes in two years working as a consultant? Do you want to be in-flight more than you remain on-ground? Are you going to be happy coming back to an empty home night-in and night-out? You cannot put a dollar value to these questions and their answers, but I will bet you ten dollars today that you will ask yourself these questions one day.
What does "success" mean to you? What is the use of "prestige" in your life? Can you live off your "prestige" if you are not realizing your true potential?
In business speak, do you want to get a better paying job with financial and social perks or do you want to become an independent businessman?
Case in point: With an eye on the World Cup, footballers on the bench move from high prestige clubs to lower clubs in the hope of getting the necessary playing time to convince their national coaches that they are capable of performing in games? Why? National team football doesn't pay much, if at all anything. All they get is a trophy at the end, but you only get one chance to win the World Cup every four years. Does winning the World Cup mean something to you or does getting USD 100k per week mean more to you? What is the legacy you are leaving?
My point: I personally believe the MBA is a very relevant degree for the world system and for an individual.
System view: There is no perfect system but the business degree brings into the system trained individuals who take up positions in different kinds of firms dependent on their motivations, skills, training and aptitude. However imperfect the system or the individual, you need a match stick to light your home stove more than you need a spaceship maker even though the needs of both functions might differ. So, every person and industry function has its takers and relevance. So it is with schools and the people who go to them. Everyone is equal.
Individual view: If a person wants to understand "business" or any other field for that matter, an education never hurts. The chances that an education will help you become more aware are quite high. Combining this with a basic understanding of ones motivations, goals and things that matter can undeniably give you a great set of skills and confidence that lasts a lifetime.
My personal thought: Step back, shut out the sounds, forget the dollars, forget the clapping. Look into the mirror and ask your heart if you are going the right way and if you will be happy.
You will get your answer.
The message is loud and clear dude, " Do what your heart says." But we dont "get it" when an unknown soul writes it on a PG forum but are ga ga over it when Steve Jobs says the same thing in the Stanford convo. :SAD:
I would say its both :)
hype bcoz lot of people follow the crowd not really knowing what they want to get out of an MBA except hefty salaries.
Reality bcoz it is the single most degree that provides one the opportunity to reinvent himself/herself and still earn insane amount of money 😃
While we are on the topic of hype, quite a few voices on these forums felt that the online CAT process was hyped as well.
Also, for many the story doesn't end there as many applicants felt the results and the decisions weren't in sync with general expectations.
MBA is not required in the western world to go at the top.There are many other factors which are evaluated like your experience,diversity of your experience,ideas more than your degree
As for India , with all the media hype and cultural pressure employers have started saying MBA is a must to break that glass ceiling and go to the top
Van Dijk SaysEven in US, only about 10 to 15% of the CEOs of Fortune 200 companies have an MBA degree and the ROI of these companies is lower than the ROI of companies managed by people with just Undergard or less qualifications like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs etc etc
Interesting observation Van Dijk. When and where was this published? Any reference link that you can share?
MBA is not required in the western world to go at the top.There are many other factors which are evaluated like your experience,diversity of your experience,ideas more than your degreeNot too sure about that buddy. The MBA degree is essentially a US product. HBR generates a huge amount of case-studies (which are used across the world). And going by GMAT stats, most GMAT scores are forwarded to American bschools and domestic students form the biggest chunk of the incoming class. So I'd say the MBA craze transcends borders and isn't just an India phenomenon.
As for India , with all the media hype and cultural pressure employers have started saying MBA is a must to break that glass ceiling and go to the top
On a related note, I have updated the original post. Scroll to the end of the post to read about a recent development.
- Sameer
Founder | MBA Crystal Ball
That point was made by somebody else i was just quoting(ok i didnt put it in italics) and justifying it
Not too sure about that buddy. The MBA degree is essentially a US product. HBR generates a huge amount of case-studies (which are used across the world). And going by GMAT stats, most GMAT scores are forwarded to American bschools and domestic students form the biggest chunk of the incoming class. So I'd say the MBA craze transcends borders and isn't just an India phenomenon.
Thats just my opinion, western labour markets are more flexible which is why one doesnt always need an MBA , plus i checked the profiles of graduates on the companies website and also linkedin , quite a few dont have an MBA.