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    IIT/IIM faculty: To call world-class or not to call world-class, that is the question
    by Apurv Pandit in IIM, IIT, Management research, Jairam Ramesh on 27 May '11


    The vitriolic public reaction to Union Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh's seemingly innocuous comment that "The faculty in Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) is not world-class. It is the students in IITs who are world-class. The IITs and Indian Institutes of Management (IIMs) are excellent because of the quality of students and not because of quality of research or faculty," largely smells of hurt egos and cognitive dissonance.


    The Indian middle class, which has been the biggest beneficiary of globalization, is finding it hard to digest an insinuation against colleges that made it possible for their offspring to high jump to the economic upper class by bringing multinational and international jobs within reach. Middle class aspirations which were previously aimed at government and bank jobs, found higher calling in the emerging and better-paying private sector jobs. Suddenly, it was not necessary to have an uncle's 'reference' in order to get a good job; success lay an individual meritorious effort away. An IIT or IIM education became the new status symbol. No wonder, everyone wants to believe that the IITs and IIMs are world-class and have world-class faculty, regardless of whether that is true or not.


    There is also a copious proportion of "how dare the pot call the kettle black" sentiment in the tweets, retweets and adrenaline flow that Ramesh's comment has sparked off. Reacting to the minister, commodity literature author and IIT Delhi/IIM Ahmedabad alumnus Chetan Bhagat tweeted, "Before Jairam Ramesh talks about IIT/IIM faculty being world-class, he should comment if our politicians are world-class."


    Alumni and faculty associations of the IITs grabbed the opportunity to demand higher research grants and fewer teaching hours for IIT faculty and similar noises were made by IIM alumni too. Their submissions were fair: how can quality research happen with government interference, faculty shortage, lack of funds and the overload of teaching responsibilities compounded by increasing batch sizes at these colleges.


    Some IIM alumni also argued that because they had had a very insightful learning experience under a highly approachable set of professors, they indeed must be a big deal on the world stage. This specious argument lacks credibility as it purports good personal experiences as evidence of passing the benchmarks of what actually defines world class faculty. Is it that the faculty at other good b-schools is un-insightful and unapproachable? Professors regarded as 'Gods' in a certain management area may be leading academics in the Indian context, but have remained insignificant in the global top echelons of management thought leadership.


    And if you think about it, the ambiguity about what qualifies as 'world-class' whets up rhetoric (much to the enjoyment of those like me who like to watch the fun from the sidelines) and prevents such debates from reaching meaningful conclusions. Having lived in an economy which had shut the doors to the rest of the world for the majority of the country's independent years, it is worthwhile to consider that as Indians we may have little clue about what is regarded as 'world-class' in a modern global context where higher education systems flourished much before they did in India (I am not going into romantic discussions built around the ancient universities of India here as that phase of history is irrelevant now). In India, academic excellence has largely begun and ended with great teaching ability whereas the rest of the developing and developed world considers cutting-edge research as the principal parameter of academic excellence, and teaching excellence is considered to be a given.


    Examining some numbers might also help.


    According to annual figures published by Batelle - R&D; Magazine, India lags substantially behind China in its annual R&D; spend. India's Gross Domestic Expenditure on Research and Development (GERD) after factoring Purchasing Power Parity was US$ 28.1 billions in 2009, which increased to US$ 33.3 billions in 2010. In comparison, China spent more than four times that of us at US$ 123.7 billions in 2009 and US$ 141.4 billions in 2010 on R&D.;


    The UNESCO Institute of Statistics reports that between 2000 and 2004, India had a research manpower count of 119 researchers per million people compared to China's 708 and USA's 4,605 per million people.


    The Shanghai Jiao Tong University's (SJTU) Institute of Higher Education which conducts the annual 'Academic Ranking of World Universities' using empirical data from science and social science research citation indexes as its sources ranks Bangalore's Indian Institute of Science in the 300-400 range and the Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur in the 400-500 range. No other Indian institutes, whether the IITs or IIMs, feature in its top 500.


    Teaching pressure has only recently increased in the IITs and IIMs, after the government implemented caste quotas and forced the institutes to more than double their annual intakes in their flagship programs of study. The faculty numbers, however, have not increased proportionately at least in the older IIMs. The 'teaching overload' pet-peeve brandished by IIM faculty did not exist before the middle of the 2000s, when batch sizes were smaller and the faculty strength was only 70-80% of what it is now. Nor were the IIMs running one-year executive programs then. How did the faculty perform in terms of research then?


    I wrote about a study on research contribution to the most competitive journals from Indian b-schools in an article earlier this month. According to the study, the IIMs had shown dismal performance in contributing top-tier research between 1991 and 2009 and while there were some promising signs of late, in the aggregate the Indian Statistical Institutes at Kolkata, Delhi and Bangalore and the Indian School of Business, Hyderabad had beaten the IIMs hands down in contribution of top-quality research. The argument that teaching overload prevents faculty from high-quality research is highly suspicious because there were never any glory days of research at these institutes when the teaching pressure was easier.


    This does not mean that the IIM faculty has been sitting idle when it was not teaching. Many have been publishing their research in not-so-competitive peer-reviewed or non-refereed journals, while some others have been involved in sparking off rural innovation initiatives (such as the Honey Bee Network from IIM Ahmedabad) or advising the government sitting on policy panels. Some have also co-authored Asian editions of management textbooks. While such initiatives do make the faculty local heroes, they do not make a compelling case for IIM faculty to call themselves at par with the best in the world.


    As of today, all the six older IIMs put together produce just one or two top-tier research papers every year, compared to the HKUST School of Business, Hong Kong which singlehandedly produces 30 in one year, or schools like Wharton or MIT-Sloan which produce around 80 per year. On the world stage, the research contribution of the IIMs is negligible.


    Cutting-edge research --- studies that are at the absolute forefront of human discovery and have long-lasting influence on society have rarely happened at the IIMs. No IIM professor has ever come within meaningful distance of being nominated for a Nobel Prize, though a couple of names from the IITs and government universities have flown around in the Nobel nominee backchannels in the past. Many ethnically Indian professors have appeared in various lists of the world's top thinkers (the late CK Prahalad of University of Michigan, Vijay Govindrajan of Dartmouth, Bala V Balachandran of Kellogg), but none belong to the IITs or IIMs. In their 50-odd years of existence, the IIMs have failed to produce a single thought-leader in the international arena.


    According to academicians who watch the research landscape closely, most faculty at the IIMs neither aspire to conduct cutting-edge research, nor do they possess the necessary skills even if they wanted to. Who should one blame? Most academicians blame the previously low-quality training of the FPM programmes at the IIMs. "Not only have the IIMs produced insufficient PhDs, most of them do not possess the quantitative skills required to produce compelling research that can pass the most rigorous peer-review processes known to the world," says a professor who taught at IIM Ahmedabad in the first six years of its existence.


    If there is a genuine grouse that IIT or IIM faculty may credibly have, it is the lack of adequate research funding or competitive salaries at these institutes. While undergraduate or post-graduate programs, executive training and consultancy are money-making ventures for b-schools, research is entirely a cost center. Research requires money for the scholar to travel, commission surveys, buy data or engage paid associates or assistants.


    There are various avenues that the IITs and IIMs can arrange funds from. Student fees comes to mind as a natural source of funds, but given the hue-and-cry surrounding 'return-on-investment' of placement salaries against fees, it is unlikely that the IIMs can look forward to students funding their research aspirations anytime soon.


    Top b-schools worldwide enjoy abundant donations from their alumni. In 2010, MBA alumni of Chicago-Booth, Harvard and Columbia gifted in excess of $10 million each to their alma maters' funds. The business schools of both Harvard and Stanford now boast of endowments of more than US$ 1 billion. With that kind of cash, the schools better be involved in cutting-edge influence on the world. Such kind of alumni giving-back or fundraising is unheard of at the IIMs. It is worthwhile to consider why the wealthy lot among IIM graduates do not give back to their schools in such copious amounts. The IITs however do boast about sporadic instances of multi-crore gifts from their alumni.


    Which leaves the IIMs and IITs mostly dependent on the government for research grants, such as the Rs 20 crore one given to IIM Calcutta in the 2011 Union Budget. No doubt India should increase its spending on research and development and foster indigenous intellectual property. So should the IIMs and IITs divert more funds towards churning out a larger number of PhDs. But can these institutes sustainably grow to become world-class centers of research excellence on taxpayer money alone?


    It is ironic that the same IIT/IIM alumni who have been spewing defensive venom on Jairam Ramesh's comments have been loath to enabling their alma maters in becoming world-class research institutes. How many of these IIM alumni would have joined and not decried their institutes had the fees been Rs 30 lakhs instead of Rs 13 lakh? Forget crores, how many lakh rupees are the IIMs getting from their alumni this year?


    "It's a tough job and someone's got to do it. Not me, of course. But someone, definitely."


    Jairam Ramesh's comment is at least half true. With a super-difficult entry barrier in the Common Admissions Test (CAT), the IIMs have been successful at aggregating some superhigh-IQ youngsters at one place which the corporates get convenient access to for hiring. In the two years of the MBA, the IIMs may also teach a thing or two about management to these bright minds, albeit using second-hand material not generated by the native faculty, but by the professors at the Whartons and the Harvards. Now imagine what the results would be like if the same set of super-able students were instead taught by Harvard or Wharton faculty using cutting-edge and first-hand knowledge. That may help you assess the substance in Jairam Ramesh's comment.


    Jairam Ramesh might have had ulterior political motives in making provocative comments that fire up TV news and Twitter. But as a good side-effect, sections of our society have started to question the media-created hype around the so-called 'world-class intellectual capital' of the IITs and IIMs. For it is only when we acknowledge the existence of problems, can we begin to think about finding solutions to them.

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    mani17, kartick.m & 239 others like this
    • Page 8 of 9  
    • NOTHING1954 There is a reference to cognitive dissonance in the above article. It works both ways. If guys who are from IIMs are defending IIMs, one wonders where are the guys who are denigrating IIMs coming from? Probably these are guys who didn't make it to IIMs and now are hell bent on denigrating them. In any case those who didn't get into IIMs far outnumber those who got in. It will be interesting to know what % are arguing for and against IIMs from these two categories! In the olden days this was called sour grapes. In the modern day they are calling it cognitive dissonance, I guess.
      #141 • 28 May '11 Like
    • shakti6066 its not worth commenting here , some people are here to pick up fights only , best of luck to them ...they will argue to eternity even if they know the fact.
      #142 • 28 May '11 Like
    • sps86 Excellent writeup. I couldn't agree more with the closing lines. I really feel that one of the main challenges that India faces in realizing its true potential, is its inability to accept constructive criticism. We all know we have the potential to be the best, I do not think we can argue with that, but one thing is for sure we have a long way to go. And the sooner we can come to terms with that the faster we will reach where we deserve to be.
      #143 • 29 May '11 Like
    • rosh31 Chetan Bhagat tweeted, Before Jairam Ramesh talks about IIT/IIM faculty being world-class, he should comment if our politicians are world-class. This is coming from someone who has made fun of the teaching methods, professors, and the management as such, of both IITs and IIMs, in two of his books, which became best sellers in India. pretty ironical.
      #144 • 29 May '11 Like
    • v_guha @Roshni . I guess Mr Bhagat believes that since he is an IIT/IIM passout he has the right to criticize as in "world class students can bash world class teachers and those who enter the gates of iit iim s are world class" And Mr Ramesh no matter how qualified he is ,is not from either ( afaik) so he has no right to criticize anybody....Truly speaking, one of the reasons ,I was actually a fan of Bhagat books because I thought he was humble enough to look beyond the halo that students of these institutions seem to have around themselves and portray himself as just another regular guy...guess i was wrong. And as far as being world class itself, why don't the people truly become "world class" i.e. for get featured in the world rankings consistently and shut Mr Ramesh up if they feel he is wrong. Tomorrow if we come to know that XYZ professor from IIM was hailed in an international forum for the stupendous work he has done , the media will then be after Mr Ramesh's blood. The rest of the world haven't seen much achievement from the faculties of these institutions that's why they make such comments as these. On the other hands the milestones crossed by the students are constantly in the news. Hence the perception that the students are world class and not the faculty.....
      #145 • 29 May '11 Like
    • aktivlove @starvoyager: (skip one para and read then, that for you) Congrats to PG for putting out an article which increases readership of website. Similar trend is out there on ToI, Eco times and others. Really wonder if media (an PG is also part of that) really cares about country or is it only to generate more readership? If its readership, then you do what gets you bread and butter, IIT/IIM grad do what gets them. ~let meaningless discussion prevail Now my two cents of contri to mess :P @starvoyager: - Patents in China being more than India: Simple nuggest from person too involved in IPR - Patent laws are too lax in China, definition of novelty is too broad to include many things. India on the other hand, tried to keep it narrower than what WIPO states. Who is trying to cull out worthless stuff? - IITs give you world class engineers, but they also need support in terms of infra to produce and outcome. And if one has bright mind, punishing him/her simply because he wants good reward for that is not exactly a fair idea right? Why should they be more responsible for DRDO and country than others? Do they get more voting rights than others? when rights are equal, why you expect them to shoulder more responsibility!
      #146 • 29 May '11 Like
    • satana @V_Guha ...Mr Ramesh is a IIt B alumnus .He has studied at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College and received a Master of Science in Management and public policy. In 1977-78, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology he studied technology policy, economics, engineering, and management, as part of the newly-established inter-disciplinary technology policy programme. HE is pretty highly qualified.
      #147 • 29 May '11 Like
    • satana source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jairam_Ramesh
      #148 • 29 May '11 Like
    • innovate Instead of arguing semantics without a proper framework in place, let's break down Ramesh's comment into its various components: a) Are the IITs/IIMs world class? At least in the quote provided by this article, Ramesh agrees that these institutes are "world-class." I tend to agree because the most important kind of learning whether at Harvard or an IIM is peer learning. This is the driving force behind the "case method" Harvard champions (I agree that if your teachers are directly involved with the cases, you have access to cutting edge information - no arguments there). B) Are the IITs/IIMs producing cutting edge research of adequate quality and with acceptable frequency? Not too many people would argue with Jairam on this point either. Our institutes are yet to develop into world-class research centers (the reasons are innumerable, but there now seems to be a trend towards more research. Let's hope for better results in the future). C) Are the faculty at these institutes world-class? This is a point that itself consists of several components. The Faculty at these institutes may not contribute extensively to knowledge creation (and hence deprive students of cutting edge information, and a detailed understanding of the process), but they do come from pedigreed backgrounds. Most of these individuals actively participate in various industries (at least in the IIMs) and have themselves cleared several admissions hurdles to prove their "intelligence" (going by Mr. Kapil Sibal's remark that many IIT profs have done their BTechs there). This means that these institutions have capable teachers with a strong understanding of the fundamentals, but maybe lacking in cutting-edge knowledge/personal experience in knowledge creation. This is not necessarily such a bad combination because after all, it takes great personal impetus for anyone to take revolutionary strides. As far as training students in the basics required to function in the industry, most IIT/IIM students and recruiters would agree that the profs have not done such a bad job. Personally, I feel that Jairam's comments are rather simplistic, and designed to attract attention. It's all good as long as it leads to improvement though :)
      #149 • 29 May '11 Like
    • innovate A correction: Under point "a" I meant, Jairam agrees that these institutions are "excellent"
      #150 • 29 May '11 Like
    • starvoyager @ Prateek Are Indian patent laws so stringent that this covers the HUGE gulf in number of patents filed? With the patent landscaping and prior art work I've done, I'm not too sure. What is a worrying aspect here is the fact that 80 % of patents filed in India are by MNC R & D centres. I completely agree with your 2nd point about the infrastructure and atmosphere for research here. It takes an average of 7 years to get a PhD at IISc as against 4-5 years abroad. This is extremely discouraging to any bright person wanting to do a PhD/Post-doc here. Govt funding can only do so much. But I do believe industry would be ready to fund promising research that can be turned into technologies/techniques/strategies that can give them a competitive advantage. There are professors being funded by certain companies at different instis, but the number needs to go up sharply. What I do feel is that Jairam Ramesh's comments are to make us acknowledge the problem and then discuss how we may take steps to improve it. For that to happen, we need to stop judging our instis by the number of Consults/I -Banks recruiting there. (No offence meant to IIM C's impressive placement record) and look at other ways they can add further value to society.
      #151 • 29 May '11 Like
    • aktivlove @starvoyager: LoL ... how on earth did IIMC placement record become part of reply to a discussion!! Just because I happed to be its alum :O MNCs are called so for a reason...they are not part of one country...why is it worrying? Plus, if 'neutral' organizations (with no presumed allegiance to an insti) like MNCs setup R&D; centres in India, does that not suggest that they recognize talent in India. R&D; centres do not come simply because a country is low cost centre. Manufacturing base comes for that reason. How was this talent groomed? Is it not by studying under the faculty or you are suggesting they studied by their own? If MNCs R&D; is considered world class, what does it say again? Or is there an impression that resource in R&D; go for MS, come back and join here? or worse R&D; centres are full of foreigners? thanks, for your argument as that turned out to be my favor :P
      #152 • 29 May '11 Like
    • aktivlove @starvoyager: LoL ... how on earth did IIMC placement record become part of reply to a discussion!! Just because I happed to be its alum :O MNCs are called so for a reason...they are not part of one country...why is it worrying? Plus, if 'neutral' organizations (with no presumed allegiance to an insti) like MNCs setup R&D; centres in India, does that not suggest that they recognize talent in India. R&D; centres do not come simply because a country is low cost centre. Manufacturing base comes for that reason. How was this talent groomed? Is it not by studying under the faculty or you are suggesting they studied by their own? If MNCs R&D; is considered world class, what does it say again? Or is there an impression that resource in R&D; go for MS, come back and join here? or worse R&D; centres are full of foreigners? thanks, for your argument as that turned out to in my favor :P
      #153 • 29 May '11 Like
    • instinctivefist An exhaustive and very good article from the point of comparing Indian top institutes against the best regarded in the world. India is still developing and just like everything else, its education system will catch up too. Arrival of ISB and foreign schools in India will definitely provide the much needed trigger for the Indian education system to change.
      #154 • 29 May '11 Like
    • starvoyager The line about placements was to make the point that no one is trying to take away anything from what the IIMs/IITs have achieved so far. MNCs may be multi-country, but the technology that is developed by them does not necessarily benefit India. To quote an example, if a MNC pharma giant succeeds in developing a vaccine for AIDS, it will use it to make a profit. We would then be buying that vaccine from the company at the exorbitant rates they would charge (A similar debate is currently underway in Africa on this issue.) Now, if one of our instis developed the vaccine in the first place, it could be made available far more cheaply to those in need. Next, about world class grads at these R & D centres. No one has denied that the students from these instis are brilliant. What is considered unproven (and what is the whole point of the article) is that the students are that brilliant because they studied under brilliant faculty. Lastly, you would find that there are quite a lot of ppl who have done their MS and PhDs abroad in such centres as well.For instance, at the one where I worked, they hardly recruited Indian PhDs or MS grads (the ones recruited at advanced positions)
      #155 • 29 May '11 Like
    • chilledmba Bhaiyo aur unki behno research is not a priority in India , placements are , pet bhara hoga tabhi to research hogi. Koi IISc main admission lega IITs ko chor ke , answer is no , Placement chahiye bhai.
      #156 • 30 May '11 Like
    • Mithles First Ministers should do something about these institutes invest that kind of money into these top institutes and then if such kind of so called innovation is not happening then they should say something....whatever his was or anybody is..it doesnt really matters....IITs/IIMs are not only known by their students..but by the teachers also.....and if they are so concerned then stop the people who are going out of india and teaching can they afford that much not a 10 % of what they get there...so bring them up here.......and then expect soemthing making any comment witout doing anything is worthless....also a baseless comment.....Also someone said..... You cannot preach to an empty stomach......so first fulfill that and then expect soemthing ....hawa hawa mein kuch bhi bol dene se kuch nahi hota.......
      #157 • 30 May '11 Like
    • angrybirds @ starvoyage talking about lca you sounded like you wanted to reinvent the wheel. I mean manfacturing the basic components ourselves. If we do that it would take may be 50 years. And as you know we were ruled by foreign power some 60 years back. And comparing indian organisations to taliban shows you are a true crusader, who would say anything to get his point across. No more arguing wid u. To everyone else- the world class journal harvard business review that is, is american and whether you agree or not they will publish research pertaining to american experiences and in that country's context. Now if an iim professor does research for american scenario with indian taxpayers money we will simply have for lunch-raw. And when he tries to publish something in indian context it is irrevalant. If you know most of tha indians who have published abroad have not done anything benefitting india. Talking about awards doled out by western institutions, I have jaust one thing to say judges have bias against people on the basis of different factors. For instance how many from china or singapore get noble prizes or any other. 4 indians have got booker prize and evey book is hyper critical of india. There are many other good books by indiana but they will not get any awards. Same people are bashing iims and iits today were also critical of isro asking indian government money for second stage of chandraayaan program. That to at a time when 1st stage was succesfully delivered at a fraction of what has been spent by other space agencies. Actually problem is with the world class alumni who contribute nothing to their Alma mater. Hope iim iit alumni take it in good sense and do something towards that. @ apoorv yes america is world class. But on parameters defined by whom. In 19th century britain was world class since they had maximu colonies. Succesful people in america had slaves working for them. Someone, I can't remember who it was, previously in same thread put up a question. Will you blame brits for ruling us? Yes however weak other people are you don't have to make them your slaves. In every age there is a country or group of people who define excellence or world class. Today it is america. That does not mean that they are right. Colonisation was wrong and slavey was wrong, but still that was the parameter used to judge nations before views changed and better sense prevailed. I am not equating today's america with those institutions. But this is the american age. Capitalism is an ameeican product. Hence they are the ones who define these things. But this may not be the only way or even the right way to judge things. Hope you get my point.
      #158 • 30 May '11 Like
    • angrybirds @ starvoyage talking about lca you sounded like you wanted to reinvent the wheel. I mean manfacturing the basic components ourselves. If we do that it would take may be 50 years. And as you know we were ruled by foreign power some 60 years back. And comparing indian organisations to taliban shows you are a true crusader, who would say anything to get his point across. No more arguing wid u. To everyone else- the world class journal harvard business review that is, is american and whether you agree or not they will publish research pertaining to american experiences and in that country's context. Now if an iim professor does research for american scenario with indian taxpayers money we will simply have for lunch-raw. And when he tries to publish something in indian context it is irrevalant. If you know most of tha indians who have published abroad have not done anything benefitting india. Talking about awards doled out by western institutions, I have jaust one thing to say judges have bias against people on the basis of different factors. For instance how many from china or singapore get noble prizes or any other. 4 indians have got booker prize and evey book is hyper critical of india. There are many other good books by indiana but they will not get any awards. Same people are bashing iims and iits today were also critical of isro asking indian government money for second stage of chandraayaan program. That to at a time when 1st stage was succesfully delivered at a fraction of what has been spent by other space agencies. Actually problem is with the world class alumni who contribute nothing to their Alma mater. Hope iim iit alumni take it in good sense and do something towards that. @ apoorv yes america is world class. But on parameters defined by whom. In 19th century britain was world class since they had maximu colonies. Succesful people in america had slaves working for them. Someone, I can't remember who it was, previously in same thread put up a question. Will you blame brits for ruling us? Yes however weak other people are you don't have to make them your slaves. In every age there is a country or group of people who define excellence or world class. Today it is america. That does not mean that they are right. Colonisation was wrong and slavey was wrong, but still that was the parameter used to judge nations before views changed and better sense prevailed. I am not equating today's america with those institutions. But this is the american age. Capitalism is an american product. Hence they are the ones who define these things. But this may not be the only way or even the right way to judge things. Hope you get my point.
      #159 • 30 May '11 Like
    • Apurv NOTHING1954 and shakti6066 banned for getting personal. Please detach arguments from people and discuss without calling names and second-guessing the motives of people you don't know. It shows that because you have nothing concrete to say, you try to take down the other person by discrediting them... how cowardly. Hope the quality of commenting elevates back to relying on facts, figures and information rather than assumptions of motives, etc. We are too happy to weed out the lowest-quality commentors outta here such as these two.
      #160 • 30 May '11 Like
    • Page 9 of 9  
    • sanestorm @prateek: cudnt agree more...CAMssss in our lingo! :) @starvoyager: to answer you, i ll just stick to the faculty part (since thats the central idea of the article) and abstain from commenting on anything else). "Faculty is not world class", "Research is not done"...blah blah...then how do you explain this. An IIM faculty being offered RBI governor's post?? yeah bcoz the reserve bank of world's biggest democracy isnt world class either!!! A stats professsor publishing more than 250 research papers and heading almost every organisation in his field that is there to be headed (google him)!!! People from foreing B schools with presumed "World Class" faculty coming to an IIM esp. for pursuing courses in Organisational behavvior!!! the list is long but I ll rest the argument here! As someone who has a lot of frens in foeign B schools( and puhleezz...I dnt say this just to win the argument) like LBS, MIT, Harvard i can tell you that not all the faculty members in these schools are top notch!! then where is this "world class" faculty...probably on Mars somewhere!!! My point is there are GOD profs, there are good ones and then there are below average teachers too. but u cant blanket them all into one bucket and label them "not World Class"!!!
      #161 • 30 May '11 Like
    • Minceworth maza aa raha hai. Yay! My first comment on Pagalguy!
      #162 • 30 May '11 Like
    • pratikpratik I just wanted a brief info about why are students generally reluctant to go for research, FPM or PhD ? 1 of the reasons I know is the time taken - around 4 or 5 years. I want to know, how are the monetary gains ? Aren't the Job prospects that good even if you pursue FPM from IIM's ? Please someone throw some light... Thanks.
      #163 • 30 May '11 Like
    • vaidya701 Thanks a lot for very interesting and elaborate post. There also exists issues related to ethics, corruption and mismanagement. Please refer to last three of my posts in pagalguy forums. http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/cat-and-related-discussion/66433-mismanagement-other-irregularities-iim-ahmedabad.html http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/cat-and-related-discussion/67095-leveraging-jairam-ramesh-comment-reforms.html#post2761079 IIMs badly need reforms. Sooner the better. Thanks.
      #164 • 30 May '11 Like
    • starvoyager @ angrybirds Shrill pseudo-patriotism is one of the worst deterrents to a frank debate. Nevertheless, as the rest of ur argument specifically excluded me, I'll refrain from commenting in detail upon what you said, though I agree when you say American journals have traditionally been reluctant to publish work in an Indian context. @sanestorm Faculty are made up of a body, amonng whom, as you have very rightly said, there will be exceptional ppl of either ilk. That's why such analyses usually stick to the middle 80 %. You are lucky he prefers teaching at IIM C to taking up the RBI Governor's post and I hope many succeeding batches will benefit from his presence. Also, I am not questioning the teaching ability of a lot of our faculty which would attract students from abroad. World class can mean a lot of aspect. The one thing I would want to reiterate is the need for the IIT/IIMs to examine closely how they can add more value to society through means other than teaching. P.S: Once again, the sheer NUMBER of papers published is of less significance than their quality. Though that is not to say that the prof u mention is extremely high calibre.
      #165 • 31 May '11 Like
    • rkd2801 Hello everyone, I fully agree with the point raised by the mentioned minister. It is the standard and quality of students who step in IIMs and IITs which makes an impression in world class level which we all know is the cream layer of whole country. Faculty did only 10% job for making them successful. Faculty have lots of work in the sector of research and development of technology in india which is not done at a remarkable level from many years and one thing more a question -- Can any faculty make an average student a successful manager or engineer to that level where other are. They are working with the cream layer students and that's why no one raised voice or noticed that. Fees of IM is more than enough and appeal should me made in this respect if needed. Thanks
      #166 • 31 May '11 Like
    • sanestorm @starvoyager: nice to see that there is someone who does listen to people with an open mind! thanks! on the sheer NUMBER of papers, while you are right in saying quality matters, I quoted the numbers along with the profs credentials just to show that there are some profs who are into quality research and related stuff. While the IITs/IIMs actually need to do more for the society or not is a separate debate...the point i was contending(which I think is at the heart of this article as well) was that the minister was wrong in looking down upon the quality of the faculty.
      #167 • 31 May '11 Like
    • sb29 Excellent article and great analysis. The only institute which has done something worthwhile to its FPM program is IIM Bangalore. One can find the report on the changes required in the program in the FPM section of their website. When you read it, you actually sense the sincerity in preparing the report. And whats more heartening is that most of the recommendations have been applied to the current FPM program. I just hope that the other two of the Big 3 (A and C) at least follow some of the things that IIMB has done. PS: Not related to IIMB in any way Shankha
      #168 • 01 Jun '11 Like
    • Apurv A curious question - who is/was the IIM Calcutta professor who has turned the RBI Governor post down and can someone please post any links/etc of any news report etc of the same? Also, are we sure that it was the Governor's position and not the Deputy Governor's position (which is frequently given to academics such as to Pune Univ's VC Narendra Jadhav, etc)?
      #169 • 01 Jun '11 Like
    • sathish123 we need world class politicians for world class faculty
      #170 • 05 Jun '11 Like
    • chance I dont think we have the right to expect much from the IIT/IIM faculty when we ourselves largely use these institutes as stepping stones for fat paychecks!How many of the students who graduate pursue a Phd in Management and how many of them are willing to become professors in the same college? We,Indians, are also guilty of looking into these issues only when they are pointed out to us by someone else. We need to constantly try and improve ourselves for own sakes and not because we want to rank better globally.America and China never seem to worry about anybody's opinions but their own!
      #171 • 06 Jun '11 Like
    • soumyaagrawal I personally believe that there are 2 aspects that we are not associating in our evaluation which are extremely important: 1. We must compare the fees in purchasing power terms rather than conversion rates because that is what really matters. Wads of notes are useless if they don't buy you much. When all our lives we have spent and earned rupees, you simply cannot convert it into dollars and start spending.. 2. The process of Idea and Knowledge generation at these prestigious institutions (all of them including IIT's and IIM's) are need based. This is what is happening, the efforts in the so-called world class institutions are on newer business models, smarter statistical analysis techniques and other things, BUT as mentioned in the article the faculty and research in IITs and IIMs is more aimed at creating sustained development which is the urgent need for out economy. is it not? and if the faculty at these institutions are making efforts and utilizing the funds for the betterment of our economy and country along with getting us students fatter paychecks... if they are not world class.. who is??
      #172 • 07 Jun '11 Like
    • anonymous [...] Excerpt no aspiring student would want to miss: Forgive me if I am going to add to the truckloads of analysis and invective that has followed Jairam The Hair Rameshs latest broadside at some random, unsuspecting institution. Everyone on every side of that debate has already spoken/written/tweeted abundantly. I particularly liked this piece by Apurv at PagalGuy.com. [...]
      #173 • 14 Jun '11 Like
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