does Mckinsey even recruit from outside the top 3 IIMs?? ( forget the research center)

yes sir..that makes sense...this is a consulting thread!!!

guys i think we are missing out on the purpose of this thread and getting on to issues which won't help anyone.
anyone agrees with me?
lets get more focussed...

hi convo,
am currntly doing my masters in operations research .can u jus pass me a copy of ur resume.( if thats ok with u) .i have a few application deadlines with a few consulting companies and my resume as it is now will not even qualify for a receptionist (())
basically hav a b.tech in production and i wud grtly appreciate it

@greenday: Would you like to apply for the position of the training and Placement officer at the IITs? Should fresh engineers be allowed to take up software jobs? Should fresh engineers (or for that matter any fresher) be allowed to appear for CAT? Isn't the education which a Physics undegraduate student gets also subsidized? Are IIT's the only instis where education is subsidized... AFAIK ... the fees in Jadavpur university in Kolkata is 100 bucks per month.. the same is true for St.Xaviers College Kolkata. Is course work the only thing you learn as an engineer? I might go on.. but I am getting bored now...

dude, you have got it all wrong.

firstly, if you cracked the JEE, have that kinda CGPA , cracked the LB interview and got selected, the least i can say is that you deserved it! my comments were more general in nature and were not targeted at anyone in particular esp you.

but think about this ,there might be someone else , who is more brilliant than you , actually has a background in the kinda work LB does but wont get selected bcoz he is not from IIT. i liked the logic put forth by someone saying that instead of waiting for these guys to passout of IIMs its better if they pick them up straight from IITs itself!!! did you have this in your mind when entering IIT that you would want to work in a field which is totally unrelated to your field of study?

cmon guys! you are brilliant! thats the general image ppl have about IITians. how true that image is , is always open to debate. But i guess you guys do have that "mohan bhargava" type IQ to actually do something on your own! and with IIT level education you should be more capable of doing it . so the general feeling which ppl get when such issue comes up is that its a national waste bcoz you guys are trained to do something and are doing something else!

on a personal level, i think you are free to do anything that you want to! just bcoz you are from iit which is funded by the govt doesnt mean you should do what the govt expects of you! but on the other hand , if you are not interested in doing that , then why do so many ppl take admissions to the iits in the first place! whats wrong here is the mob mentality! if ppl who are interested in engineering only take admissions to IITs wont India be a much better place???????

Is course work the only thing you learn as an engineer?

Lets face it! you are being selected bcoz you have demonstrated a high IQ level through cracking the JEE and having an high CGPA. do you really think you are being recruited because of these "other things" that you have picked up along with your engineering education??

A few years back it was the IT companies flocking to IITs. these companies used to pick up all sorts of enggs jsut bcoz they are from IIT. now with the kind of crappy work being done in these it companies, the ppl in IIT became reluctant to go there and hence there was a vacuum of recuiters at the IITs which has being filled with the IBs now. the only difference is that in the first case, ppl were atleast doing something remotely related to their course work while in the later case , its just more fashionable to claim that you ahve IITians working for you on something which is not even remotely related to whats being taught at IITs!

look boss, i am happy for you! with that kinda job , everybody would! but its the bigger picture i am trying to paint here! a more better option would be to just conduct the JEE and let placements happen then and there itself!

I think the government should stop subsidizing the education at IITs. I do not think any deserving candidate will be at a loss if this is done.. their are enough banks to give loans.. Or maybe while taking admissions through JEE.. the students must be made to sign a bond whereby they have to work in Government Labs and research Institutions for at least a couple of years. Then maybe the IITians can be allowed to breathe in peace later in life.
This classification of IITian and non-IITian really drives me mad. I generally find two types of people: One who say: IITians are GOD... I mean WTF... anybody who can think like that needs a reality check... and second: who go about blasting IITians that they are a collective national waste! I do not know what to say about that... maybe 20 years down the line.. I will be able to know if I have added something to this world, or been a dormant person, or has the world been a poorer place because of me.


I will get back to you guys after I get the offer letter!

till then..
--Chautauqua

Hey mate.......... been following ur last couple of posts...first of all congratulations on LB....!

As for the thoughts posted above......I really appreciate ur honesty...met quite a few of IITians myself..........sum of them my real close mates......though none of them share your views.

What can i say......you come across as a refreshing change. :)


Guys ! need a reality check on the thread...... this one'a truly dedicated to consulting queries/ experiences/ learnings etc.....NO scope for IIT/non IIT wars here !.

Better4worse

(PS: Keeping up with the spirit.....Merry Christmas ! Guys ! )

@DG: I would definitely take this over IIMX (IF I get it, that is). I have other options too... which I want to weigh out against this job offer. I am also applying for MS/Phd in applied Math... the results for which will be coming out in 2 or 3 months. and so I really want to know more about this job offer... A similar thing has hapened with me once after class 12 (when I took admission in IIT and bumped ISI... and I sometimes regret this fact) and I do not want the same thing to happen again... when I am again at a big decision making point of my life.

I think the government should stop subsidizing the education at IITs. I do not think any deserving candidate will be at a loss if this is done.. their are enough banks to give loans.. Or maybe while taking admissions through JEE.. the students must be made to sign a bond whereby they have to work in Government Labs and research Institutions for at least a couple of years. Then maybe the IITians can be allowed to breathe in peace later in life.
This classification of IITian and non-IITian really drives me mad. I generally find two types of people: One who say: IITians are GOD... I mean WTF... anybody who can think like that needs a reality check... and second: who go about blasting IITians that they are a collective national waste! I do not know what to say about that... maybe 20 years down the line.. I will be able to know if I have added something to this world, or been a dormant person, or has the world been a poorer place because of me.

--Chautauqua

Hey Chau! you are speaking on one of my top three favorite topics here on PG :wink:
About advice from me or anyone else... Listen to it and forget most of it... Make your own decisions

Its me who is officially the first indian to state and atleast till date the first indian to convincingly prove that IIT (and even IIM maybe cant say that here yet:wink:) is a national waste Ofcourse its been my first and only open challenge to anyone to prove otherwise:wink:

IITians are not a national waste but a national treasure trove but IIT is a national waste of epic proportions. So forget about those who say IITians are a national waste... they are either fools or just majorly jealous:wink:

Forgetting about all further analysis and blah blah that I have posted in 10 different posts elsewhere... The system that is the biggest error is the socialistic system of the 'Indian Institute Of XXX'... As i have said this is the new caste system:wink: And its the simple error of nomenclature that is really creating the much larger problems

Poof!! Enough on this!! Search for similar topics and continue elsewhere...
Stay with the focus on the topic of this thread!!

K

I find this hero worship thing pretty dumb myself... this conviction that if one is in an IIT or an IIM, he/she is some epitome of perfection that everyone else can only try to replicate.

There are so many times when u find words like "God" used to describe people who do well in CAT or SimCATs... right here on this forum...

The cynicism is just as bad... give credit where its due...

This is a very Indian mentality tho... nothing succeeds like success... and the meaning of "success" is shockingly unidimensional...

Exceedingly well-put.

@HitchHiker: my gpa is 8.71 .... other junta from my batch have also been taken up... they have taken junta from CS, Elec, Mech and CHem. The LB placement was on the first day of placements and so almost everybody sat applied for their job offers...
Details about the tech -interview for the group I was in (Equity):
Firstly I would like to mention that onyl EE junta and a couple of CS junta were shortlisted for this group. QUestions were based on Statistics, Probability (all the elec students shortlisted had done at least 3 hard core courses in Prob. and similar topics), C and C++, other areas of Math, puzzle solving, Optimization.


@DG: I would definitely take this over IIMX (IF I get it, that is). I have other options too... which I want to weigh out against this job offer. I am also applying for MS/Phd in applied Math... the results for which will be coming out in 2 or 3 months. and so I really want to know more about this job offer... A similar thing has hapened with me once after class 12 (when I took admission in IIT and bumped ISI... and I sometimes regret this fact) and I do not want the same thing to happen again... when I am again at a big decision making point of my life.

@greenday: Would you like to apply for the position of the training and Placement officer at the IITs? Should fresh engineers be allowed to take up software jobs? Should fresh engineers (or for that matter any fresher) be allowed to appear for CAT? Isn't the education which a Physics undegraduate student gets also subsidized? Are IIT's the only instis where education is subsidized... AFAIK ... the fees in Jadavpur university in Kolkata is 100 bucks per month.. the same is true for St.Xaviers College Kolkata. Is course work the only thing you learn as an engineer? I might go on.. but I am getting bored now...


I think the government should stop subsidizing the education at IITs. I do not think any deserving candidate will be at a loss if this is done.. their are enough banks to give loans.. Or maybe while taking admissions through JEE.. the students must be made to sign a bond whereby they have to work in Government Labs and research Institutions for at least a couple of years. Then maybe the IITians can be allowed to breathe in peace later in life.
This classification of IITian and non-IITian really drives me mad. I generally find two types of people: One who say: IITians are GOD... I mean WTF... anybody who can think like that needs a reality check... and second: who go about blasting IITians that they are a collective national waste! I do not know what to say about that... maybe 20 years down the line.. I will be able to know if I have added something to this world, or been a dormant person, or has the world been a poorer place because of me.


I will get back to you guys after I get the offer letter!

till then..
--Chautauqua

I find this hero worship thing pretty dumb myself... this conviction that if one is in an IIT or an IIM, he/she is some epitome of perfection that everyone else can only try to replicate.

There are so many times when u find words like "God" used to describe people who do well in CAT or SimCATs... right here on this forum...

The cynicism is just as bad... give credit where its due...

This is a very Indian mentality tho... nothing succeeds like success... and the meaning of "success" is shockingly unidimensional...

hmm...It does make sense for LB to go to IIT and recruit these guys. Why wait till these guys pass out of an IIM and then go and recruit them. They might as well beat the competition and catch them young! Makes a lot of sense.

And this job sounds super interesting! They are not gonna be paying you so much money for a job that involves back ended operations. ATB young sir!

@HitchHiker: my gpa is 8.71 .... other junta from my batch have also been taken up... they have taken junta from CS, Elec, Mech and CHem. The LB placement was on the first day of placements and so almost everybody sat applied for their job offers...
Details about the tech -interview for the group I was in (Equity):
Firstly I would like to mention that onyl EE junta and a couple of CS junta were shortlisted for this group. QUestions were based on Statistics, Probability (all the elec students shortlisted had done at least 3 hard core courses in Prob. and similar topics), C and C++, other areas of Math, puzzle solving, Optimization.


@DG: I would definitely take this over IIMX (IF I get it, that is). I have other options too... which I want to weigh out against this job offer. I am also applying for MS/Phd in applied Math... the results for which will be coming out in 2 or 3 months. and so I really want to know more about this job offer... A similar thing has hapened with me once after class 12 (when I took admission in IIT and bumped ISI... and I sometimes regret this fact) and I do not want the same thing to happen again... when I am again at a big decision making point of my life.

@greenday: Would you like to apply for the position of the training and Placement officer at the IITs? Should fresh engineers be allowed to take up software jobs? Should fresh engineers (or for that matter any fresher) be allowed to appear for CAT? Isn't the education which a Physics undegraduate student gets also subsidized? Are IIT's the only instis where education is subsidized... AFAIK ... the fees in Jadavpur university in Kolkata is 100 bucks per month.. the same is true for St.Xaviers College Kolkata. Is course work the only thing you learn as an engineer? I might go on.. but I am getting bored now...


I think the government should stop subsidizing the education at IITs. I do not think any deserving candidate will be at a loss if this is done.. their are enough banks to give loans.. Or maybe while taking admissions through JEE.. the students must be made to sign a bond whereby they have to work in Government Labs and research Institutions for at least a couple of years. Then maybe the IITians can be allowed to breathe in peace later in life.
This classification of IITian and non-IITian really drives me mad. I generally find two types of people: One who say: IITians are GOD... I mean WTF... anybody who can think like that needs a reality check... and second: who go about blasting IITians that they are a collective national waste! I do not know what to say about that... maybe 20 years down the line.. I will be able to know if I have added something to this world, or been a dormant person, or has the world been a poorer place because of me.


I will get back to you guys after I get the offer letter!

till then..
--Chautauqua

is this the first time Lehman or any other major investment bank is doing this?

are his seniors there as well?

besides, why do IITs allow such companies to recurit at IITs in the first place??!?!?!?! what about the whole tax paying think giving back to society stuff?

I think its really shameful for IITs. i think the case should be they just conduct the JEE, come out with results and let Lehman take on from there itself instead of wasting four years learning engineer!

i know engineering has maths and blah blah but it would be better if the process is direct and only ppl who are interested in engineering do it!

Fresh grads needed by the likes of Lehman are lookin for majorly superior brain power...

IIT=guaranteed minimum brain power
Desi Engineers=Slave trained
Branch of studies irrelevant

Lehman lookin for the smartest slaves:wink:

K

Vaibhay... thanks for the post..
We will be getting the offer letters sometime next week. During the HR inerview, I asked the HR lady if their Mumbai office is just another back office in India... and she categorically denied that... she said that the Mumbai office will be on par with the London tokya and New york offices. And that though they had started as a back office... working on IT... they are now setting up their base here in IB. They have been on a major recruiting spree in all the IITs... around 60 is the number doing the rounds..
And the Managing Directors etc. from the London and NewYork offices had come to take the interviews...
The HR told me that we will be under going at least 6 months of training and the duration will depend on the group in which we are going to work...
The offer letters might throw up some more light...
DO you know anyone who might be able to clear up the picture more?

thanks,
Chautauqua

This is an internal thing buddy... only people inside Lehman will know about his till the official PR is handed out... I looked for it but doesn't seem like the company has made an official announcement yet...

whats your GPA by the way.. and have others from your batch also been picked up?

Fresh grads needed by the likes of Lehman are lookin for majorly superior brain power...

IIT=guaranteed minimum brain power
Desi Engineers=Slave trained
Branch of studies irrelevant

Lehman lookin for the smartest slaves:wink:

K

me not an expert on this ...infact i ahve questions of my own!

what does a person in equity quantitative analytics really do? why are they taking an EE engg from IIT to do it? whats the designation being offered? and has this got to do something with EE or they are just intereted in an IIT chap?

thanks!

Hi,

I dunno if I should this is the right forum.. but here it goes..

I am a final year Btech EE student at IITX. I have been placed in Lehman Brothers, Mumbai, in the "Equity Quantitative Analytics" group. The HR from LB told us that this is not another back office in India and that the Mumbai ofice is going to be on par with their London, Tokyo and NewYork offices. Do you have any information about the above; or could you point me out someone who might be able to help me. I want to know if the work will be as exciting as they are promising; and that it is not just another back office. Their compensation pacage is good 8lakhs+. I am more concerned about the nature of the job though...
Do you have any idea what sort of career path one could go on if one takes on this job?


--chautauqua

ok...any1 here with core/mild expertise/info on Legal Research-KPO's...
there are Co. like Pangea3, Office tiger, Intellevate & manthan services who are the major players in Legal outsourcing sector....
wud b a gr8 help, if can get hold of any of there white paper cases...

-Dilip-

Make consulting a career choice

Ketan

@chaut

Tell you what I think... Go for the job even over an IIM A admit
Lehman is a top 10 ibank... And the ibanking business is going to take of here in India... And I believe you got your ass in at the right time... If it were less than 6Lakhs the work could be donkey level work but no one gives 8 Lakhs just like that...
If you think cracking the CAT 99% is not too much of a problem then dont give skipping the IIMs too much thought...
Learning on the job is anyday better and an immediate MBA only restricts the thinking process... I believe for an engineer a direct entry could be fun for atleast two years whatever be the nature of work because It will be all new... At Lehman you will could get the inside track on the indian finance industry including all the equities research, ibanking trend here in india... And possibly the smartest brains around... Ofcourse the same maybe available at IIMABC...
If the $ ibanking/hedge fund job is the final goal then it would be easier to get that job after IIM ABC with this experience...

Good Luck... and once you get in Err... Let me know some of their inside secrets... :wink:

K

Hi,

I dunno if I should this is the right forum.. but here it goes..

I am a final year Btech EE student at IITX. I have been placed in Lehman Brothers, Mumbai, in the "Equity Quantitative Analytics" group. The HR from LB told us that this is not another back office in India and that the Mumbai ofice is going to be on par with their London, Tokyo and NewYork offices. Do you have any information about the above; or could you point me out someone who might be able to help me. I want to know if the work will be as exciting as they are promising; and that it is not just another back office. Their compensation pacage is good 8lakhs+. I am more concerned about the nature of the job though...
Do you have any idea what sort of career path one could go on if one takes on this job?


--chautauqua

Can anyone throw some light into what exactly is the nature of the work. What exactly does one mean by "number crunching". Does this mean collecting ,sampling and analysing data ( collected from different sources ) and giving it a concrete shape to suit one's end result ?

P.S: Congrats chautuaqua, have a gr8 career ! :)

-Vengeance

Vaibhay... thanks for the post..
We will be getting the offer letters sometime next week. During the HR inerview, I asked the HR lady if their Mumbai office is just another back office in India... and she categorically denied that... she said that the Mumbai office will be on par with the London tokya and New york offices. And that though they had started as a back office... working on IT... they are now setting up their base here in IB. They have been on a major recruiting spree in all the IITs... around 60 is the number doing the rounds..
And the Managing Directors etc. from the London and NewYork offices had come to take the interviews...
The HR told me that we will be under going at least 6 months of training and the duration will depend on the group in which we are going to work...
The offer letters might throw up some more light...
DO you know anyone who might be able to clear up the picture more?

thanks,
Chautauqua

Guess the rite time for me butt in, well my Boss in india has recently joined us frm Lehman Bros, Dublin. nothin much frm his end, apart tht, there mumbai office cannot be ruled out of nt being a back office for the london 1, bt also they too undertake major critical prjcts which r giving glimpses of them emerging at parity with there global operations.
Well my Co. is basically into Consulting, where in my working capacity defines the business development work for there new KPO division along with ERP consulting constraining to only Functional domain expertise.
wen we talk about KPO's in a larger prospect v basically catalog it into diff research assigments like Business research, IP,accounting and Legal.
Well v are venturing into Legal research and Intellectual property with my interaction vending only with International Clients.So a oppurtunity with any consulting firm with a entry level platform shud b very lucrative for any fresher, keeping in mind the comprehensive global exposure....

Tho..me too counting like Convo ,on the same lines and pinning my future map of having an Intl MBA say 2 yr down the line..

-Dilip-

Vaibhay... thanks for the post..
We will be getting the offer letters sometime next week. During the HR inerview, I asked the HR lady if their Mumbai office is just another back office in India... and she categorically denied that... she said that the Mumbai office will be on par with the London tokya and New york offices. And that though they had started as a back office... working on IT... they are now setting up their base here in IB. They have been on a major recruiting spree in all the IITs... around 60 is the number doing the rounds..
And the Managing Directors etc. from the London and NewYork offices had come to take the interviews...
The HR told me that we will be under going at least 6 months of training and the duration will depend on the group in which we are going to work...
The offer letters might throw up some more light...
DO you know anyone who might be able to clear up the picture more?

thanks,
Chautauqua

Hi HitchHiker,

I am a final year Btech EE student at IITX. I have been placed in Lehman Brothers, Mumbai, in the "Equity Quantitative Analytics" group. The HR from LB told us that this is not another back office in India and that the Mumbai ofice is going to be on par with their London, Tokyo and NewYork offices. Do you have any information about the above; or could you point me out someone who might be able to help me. I want to know if the work will be as exciting as they are promising; and that it is not just another back office. Their compensation pacage is good 8lakhs+. I am more concerned about the nature of the job though...
Do you have any idea what sort of career path one could go on if one takes on this job?
Hoping to hear from you soon,

--chautauqua

My team deals with Lehman's NY office but am not personally aware of them setting up shop in India. However, there is no reason for them to inform us about it if our interaction needs only be with NY.

I am guessing that you will be joining after a few months when your course gets done with... its quite possible that an official PR will be made available much later than now. I wouldn't be surprised if they do set up a global practice office right here... its a huge market and lots of M&A; activity is coming up... they'd be looking for India specialists anyway.

As far as the nature of work is concerned.. Lehman pays really well, even by the lucrative standards of the industry but I just don't see them paying 8 lacs for "backoffice" work..
McKinsey pays in the range of 4 to freshers at their KC, and thats more than a back office thing...

On the other hand, i don't think they'll put you in frontline M&A; or PE work without some serious training... a couple of my college friends are working with an I-Bank in Mumbai and their training is itself 18 months at the minimum...

I suggest you find out about this.. ie. what is the kind of training they are gonna give you. The program is general for the first 6 months or so and then specific branch training according to your competencies. Let me clarify, this is for the place my friends are at. It is possibe that LB has a different program.

The specific segments that Lehman works in are Investment Banking, Capital Markets, and Investment Management.
Investment Banking segment provides advice to corporate, institutional, and government clients on M&A; and Private placement. It also underwrites public and private offerings of debt and equity securities. Now, there are a lot of specific insruments you could specialise in.... stock, govt bonds, money market products, high yield and emerging market securities, mortgage- and asset-backed securities, real estate, municipal securities, bank loans, foreign exchange, and financing and derivative products.... the list goes on.

Capital Markets segment includes institutional customer flow activities, prime brokerage, research (I am here..), and secondary-trading and financing activities in fixed income and equity products.

Investment Management segment consists braodly of private placement and asset mangement.

What i can say is that its a great opportunity... go for it... not blindly of course, but with a resonable certainty that you'll get to learn loads and earn loads. Like i said above, ask your recruiter to spell ut the program... I doubt it will be back office, but also don't see you on the frontline right after graduation...

Only caveat is that -- as I know from personal experience, LB sucks every cent's worth out of you -- but I don't mind and I don't think you would either!

Best of Luck.

Vaibhav.

PS: That was kinda hurried, please ignore any spelling/grammar/redundancies in the above.

Hi !!! I have got my summers at KSA -Technopak ( retail consultancy) . i am bit skeptical about it as technopak is buying KSA 's stake which is the worlds largest retail consultancy.Anybody who knows about it can offer some advice.

vaibhav

Thanks CS..

Right now I am not at all motivated enough to do an MBA and it really does not fit into my scheme of things right now. I have written CAT though.

I am more of a Math guy, and like number crunching etc. I would not mind going into Financial research. As I had written earlier... it is job which is more important to me than the amount of money I am getting... (money per se has much less priority for me right now... and if my work is requred in this world.. money will automatically come)

As for expansion: LB is surely expanding.. they have hired more than 15 students (Exaotic derivatives, fixed income analytics, equity quant, CDO) from IITM alone this year..



--Chautauqua

Hi,

I dunno if I should this is the right forum.. but here it goes..

I am a final year Btech EE student at IITX. I have been placed in Lehman Brothers, Mumbai, in the "Equity Quantitative Analytics" group. The HR from LB told us that this is not another back office in India and that the Mumbai ofice is going to be on par with their London, Tokyo and NewYork offices. Do you have any information about the above; or could you point me out someone who might be able to help me. I want to know if the work will be as exciting as they are promising; and that it is not just another back office. Their compensation pacage is good 8lakhs+. I am more concerned about the nature of the job though...
Do you have any idea what sort of career path one could go on if one takes on this job?


--chautauqua

First of all congrats Its a gr8 position for any fresher to start from You are basically into equities and a career path right now is kinda fuzzy. You could end up in a 100 different places right now but AFAIK all of em are great places to land in. All I'd say is instead of thinking too far ahead and wondering about where you will go taste the money, the life and of course the work for a year, you will not need anyone to answer that question. And yes LB is expanding in India , so is Goldman Sachs. Its analytics and research alright but definitely worth taking over an MBA right now if you have such plans. Best of luck and keep us posted

Oh and it is not the kind of back office you think it is, but you are definitely cheaper than the $70K US chappie

Hi,

I dunno if I should this is the right forum.. but here it goes..

I am a final year Btech EE student at IITX. I have been placed in Lehman Brothers, Mumbai, in the "Equity Quantitative Analytics" group. The HR from LB told us that this is not another back office in India and that the Mumbai ofice is going to be on par with their London, Tokyo and NewYork offices. Do you have any information about the above; or could you point me out someone who might be able to help me. I want to know if the work will be as exciting as they are promising; and that it is not just another back office. Their compensation pacage is good 8lakhs+. I am more concerned about the nature of the job though...
Do you have any idea what sort of career path one could go on if one takes on this job?


--chautauqua

This seems to be more like a 101 Primer course on consulting:

http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/dec/22sudhi.htm

Arun

If u need such research firms gurgaon is the place to be. However mumbaind pune make more sense for equity research. Lots of firms here have set shop for their back end research. Pipal research, inductis, marketRX, evalueserve are some of the firms I know and am sure i am missing others

hey convo ...also wanted to ask if yu could help me with the BR thing ..i guess only eserve offers it..dont know any other firms offering BR to freshers
hope yu could help

thanks convo ...yu really are an ANGEL...actually i was more interested in the BR JOB but i am a bit skeptical bout the IPR thing guess ..would play it safe ...would stick to CTS ....cause i am interested in ERP/SAP FUNC.consultancy

hey convolutedsignal i need yr help thick+fast rather any EXPERT /inexp consultants's help would be appreciated ... i am from PUNE univ BE ELEX+comm. am presently sitting on 2 job offers one from CTS Chennai ,one from Evalueserve ,gurgaon joining 30dec,2jan respectively
AS yu guessed it gotta do myMBA + get into consulting
DONT KNOW WHICH OFFER TO TAKE e-serve pays bout 3lacs ,cts chennai 2.11....but the profile at eserve(KPO) IS OF intellectual prop rgts research associate ...VERY CONFUSED PLS HELP

I live with a coupla guys who r in EVS currently and had an offer for their BR position. I'd say go for the EVS option. It will let you work on ur domain and is definitely more business oriented than a CTS job. A Business research offer wud have been ideal but the IPR position offers great scope for growth too I believe, but the warning of course being that you cannot make a career out of it. 2 years at the max and you will have to move as IPR gets a bit monotonous after that. So if you are very sure of an MBA as an option then come to Gurgaon. The work is also very intense. 14 hr work days are the norm and tht might hinder your prep plans.

hey convolutedsignal i need yr help thick+fast rather any EXPERT /inexp consultants's help would be appreciated ... i am from PUNE univ BE ELEX+comm. am presently sitting on 2 job offers one from CTS Chennai ,one from Evalueserve ,gurgaon joining 30dec,2jan respectively
AS yu guessed it gotta do myMBA + get into consulting
DONT KNOW WHICH OFFER TO TAKE e-serve pays bout 3lacs ,cts chennai 2.11....but the profile at eserve(KPO) IS OF intellectual prop rgts research associate ...VERY CONFUSED PLS HELP

Ahem..U make me sound like a kid. I am a BE from BITS Pilani and had an offer from a KPO (Evalueserve) on campus. I went around asking people about what would be an ideal career path. We have an amazing aluni network and I got talking to an alumnus who is currently in Mckinsey USA. He referred me to McK Mumbai and at the same time to my current firm which is smaller (30 in India) but offered a better package and greater growth opportunities (this is not a cliche!) . I went through bothe the processes simultaneously and after the first round was kinda convinced about my current firm and chose to value suitablity over brand name (for now of course) . I dropped out of Mck's process got placed here after 6 rounds of interviews ( 3 of them Case interviews). I have had the opportunity to work in international assignments already (we do not have indian clients ) and have started heading my own agenda. So I guess am happy with the choice I made. My company has just arrived in India and so in the 4 months I've been here already become some sort of a senior. I am of course not a consultant full time and carry the of a research analyst. Since I work in teams on consulting assignments anyway I guess I am a consultant too albeit a rather inexperienced one.The job offers you challenge enough to keep on you on your toes eternally and also the chance to work with the sharpest minds around. You have to know your numbers and be ready to be challenged at any point of time. The perks are good ( I have my own golf club membership and regular wine tasting sessions ) Its good fun for now but I need an MBA fast cos I don't think I can last for more than 3 years without an MBA in this business. So thats my story.
Have any specific queries pm me. I am not very comfortable discussing my firm's name in a public forum.

hi i am 1st yr student of mba fm fore -new delhi, i did my grad. in management stream. and started mba immediately after grad..fresher indeed. it was during my grad. yr i developed an interest solving case studies and furthr enjoyin in mba. though gets at times. cases as well as brains. i want to strt my job in a consultancy firm though i know the fact tht co.s dont come at fore. typically mck bcg deloitte ....accenture(fin an oprn) and mckc comes to our campus though. these co.s (consultancy co.s) prefer candidates with what prior work ex. after mba typically (vis a vis my case).?
i would like to get insight on one thing tht if u wrk for mckc you are not able to enter mck.? is it true. ..had a small discussion wid an alumni of IIML an def. culdn get an answer.
regards,
aditya kaul.

Could be great if we you can gleam some links and put it here or maybe even put up some interesting points that you read over here.

Arun

Frankly...a very valid point !

Arun....I had the very intention of doing so..Infact, the first version of my post had the link to Rahul's post.....its only after a while I realised that, the stuff pertaining to consultancy available on Rahul's blog was also...available on the blog link provided for Ketan.

(If u notice my post, prior to this one, had been edited..I had merely removed the link to Rahul's blog, as the same stuff was also available on the link provided by Ketan. Call it redundancy check.......! )

Note: The link available in Ketan's post........is an out and out Consulting blog (dedicated to interview experiences and learnings from them!)

Abhishek

(PS : Yes.....Im collating a lot of the good stuff from here and there...surely will put on my own blog asap !)

Interesting thread this one!

Havent been active on PG lately!
But, I am Back(Arnold Style! )

Keep up the good work guys!

Btw, i was curious - which companies in India esp bangalore are into Market/business analytics kinda work?

Agantuk.

hi all,

This is Mohit Gupta, first year pgp @ iimb. good to see nice discussion on consulting field. I am also interested in this area as my career option. Will try to put all the information i get from various clubs, seminars and talks here... let keep the information flowing....

Regards
Mohit

Yeah, Rohit & Yash are spearheading the consulting interview preps here at ISB. With his background in MC, Rohit is great guy to learn from.

From there on.. I managed to go onto Rohit's Blog......they all make up for a great offhand learning experience.
Better4worse

Could be great if we you can gleam some links and put it here or maybe even put up some interesting points that you read over here.

Arun

Hi,

Can't add much value to this thread...just came across this blog, thought it might interest people out here....

Ketan

Hey Ketan...great link man.....!

I think its going to be a great intiative ....... kudo's to YASH.

From there on.. I managed to go onto Rohit's Blog......they all make up for a great offhand learning experience.




Better4worse

Hi,

Can't add much value to this thread...just came across this blog, thought it might interest people out here....

Ketan

Hey Convo,
I got some more questions...

1. Whats the scene with people who have work experience, is there any particular kind of work that the HR at a consultancy would give more weightage to?

2. Is the hiring practice the same as everywheer else or is that done on a contractual basis, that is renewed periodically?

3. How much from your graduate studies are you supposed to be good at? I did Eco, for example, and neither have the talent nor the will to study, National Income Accounts. Macro and Monetry & Financial Institutions, i can study with great joy. (Ed Note: I realise I might not have to use any of this, but the question remains, how conversant must one be with his graduate course? )

4. Are you guys involved in Public Policy/Finance related research & consulting for government or non-governmental organisations?

Vaibhav.

There are multiple online resources www.vault.com www.wetfeet.com which expalin everything that you need to know about consulting. To get an interview call do all this:

1.Select a US 1 page format for pre MBA. If you do not have the format gimme ur mail ID. I'll pass on my resume.

2.Highlight Leadership activities, Anywhere you displayed initiative..even college level projects, Your extra curriculars of course and anything which displays ur versatility (somethin unrelated to ur field or education like say mountain climbing or music) .

The qualities they look for very keenly in your resume are
Academic excellence
Leadership
Communication skills (If you have worked for ur school/college mag it helps a lot)
Initiative
Versatality.
........basically an achiever

All strat consulting interviews will have a case interview component which tests your problem solving/analytical ability. I have mentioned web sources previously for case interview prep.

But first lets work at getting a call. The only way you will get a call is through a referral. Use your alumni network. Use PG. Find out if there are openings anywhere.

You have to spend a lot of time on your resume and cover letter. I spent a week correcting and recorrecting my resume before sending it out.

I think I have answered the first and most pertinenet query. let us wait for the others. And make sure you have a valid passport. May sound silly but I had to run helter skelter for my 'tatkal' passport later.
Best of luck

Hey Convo..... THANKS buddy! .. for being point specific here with ur post....I was looking forward to something like this from day one.

Yes ..working on the Passport issue...... big time !.... hoping to have it before end of Dec.

As for the resume and cover letter...I need to put in fair amount of work here ...convo check ur message box.


Better4worse

(PS : DesiGuru...looking forward to more inputs from u ! )

Questions like the ones below ...

1. Ways to 'Bullet proof' ur resume so that its good enuff to travel the distance...good enough to get u an interview call.
2. Interview experiences...(ques asked)
3. Preperation funda's ( prep resources) ..etc

Thanks guys for ur response to Q no1 on the list..... hoping the senior pros arnd here would share their interview experiences/anecdotes as well.

There are multiple online resources www.vault.com www.wetfeet.com which expalin everything that you need to know about consulting. To get an interview call do all this:

1.Select a US 1 page format for pre MBA. If you do not have the format gimme ur mail ID. I'll pass on my resume.

2.Highlight Leadership activities, Anywhere you displayed initiative..even college level projects, Your extra curriculars of course and anything which displays ur versatility (somethin unrelated to ur field or education like say mountain climbing or music) .

The qualities they look for very keenly in your resume are
Academic excellence
Leadership
Communication skills (If you have worked for ur school/college mag it helps a lot)
Initiative
Versatality.
........basically an achiever

All strat consulting interviews will have a case interview component which tests your problem solving/analytical ability. I have mentioned web sources previously for case interview prep.

But first lets work at getting a call. The only way you will get a call is through a referral. Use your alumni network. Use PG. Find out if there are openings anywhere.

You have to spend a lot of time on your resume and cover letter. I spent a week correcting and recorrecting my resume before sending it out.

I think I have answered the first and most pertinenet query. let us wait for the others. And make sure you have a valid passport. May sound silly but I had to run helter skelter for my 'tatkal' passport later.
Best of luck

Its been a few days since i visited PG....

For a while now....I was feeling guilty for having killed a wonderful thread with a deluge of questions.. almost making it look like the SAM's guide to Consulting ways for DUMMIES( people with IT background should know what i mean !).

I was just abt certain that the MODS are very soon going to put an OBITUARY :new-alie: for this one

Thanks to psycho/convo.....we are pretty much alive.

To be honest,...Arun ...yet again...your's has been one of the better posts on this thread for a while. My concerns on the post( read queries... though not completely answered !)......still ur response was informative and honest ( in the face !) to say the least.

I have been asking a few pertinent questions on this thread (sort of baring it all!.. in terms of stripping things down to very BASIC Q's).. for a while now... with the underlying intention of learning from people.

Questions like the ones below ...

1. Ways to 'Bullet proof' ur resume so that its good enuff to travel the distance...good enough to get u an interview call.
2. Interview experiences...(ques asked)
3. Preperation funda's ( prep resources) ..etc

Thanks guys for ur response to Q no1 on the list..... hoping the senior pros arnd here would share their interview experiences/anecdotes as well.


Abhishek
Better4worse

(PS: I have been reading and re-reading sum of the posts on this thread...cant help saying this....a lot of it has been DAMN GOOD :thumbsup:!...but also...a lot of it is GLOBAL crap as well!!!)

@convo...
You lucky son of a *****... You are telling us you have frequent flyer miles at the age of 22... Why dont you burn in hell man

I think those want to learn about consulting should first start with the dictionary definition of consulting... The MBA style consulting is really about using cutting edge management thinking (Yeah... Whatever that means...) among other things for getting right the two things a company depends on for long term survival... Strategy and Operational Effectiveness...

So mid to large companies hire consultants to basically give them a hyper intellectual outsider's view of the state of affairs in their company. Yes they could do it themselves... But as they say only the paranoid survive... So CEOs of companies are always looking at smart outsiders that is companies like McK and BCG to tell them where they are going wrong and where they are going right to make a final call about everything including long term strategy to lower level operations. Yes the CEO is supposed to make the decisions on his own but he his always free to use millions of dollars worth advice to be sure he is right Well thanks to that MBA schools will have a long life...

And Yeah the reason you need too have a brand name stamped on your forehead is because the CEO will absolutely ask you where the hell did you do your MBA. If its Harvard he might be cocky in front of you... But he will give your words sound thought when he is alone. If its Penn State Univ... He will be nice to you but might stuff your report down the toilet.

K

Well said Arun. I am actually not very clear on the distinction between a normal IT firm (ITES, service company,ITO) and an IT consulting firm. I mean even TCS is supposed to Tata Consultancy Services? How is an IT consultant different from a software engineer? and the link u provided talks about the lives of s/w engineers in service companies to be specific. Is IT consulting included? I have friends in Google, Trilogy, Yahoo who seem quite happy with the quality of work and work life. I don't agree with the travel aspect as yet cos I get to do Business Class in BA and have frequent flier miles in this nascent career of mine Guess I'll change jobs when I get married

Its been some time since I visited this thread and needless to say a lot of digression. I won't play a spoil sport by policing but would request junta to keep this thread as clean as possible. This is NOT CAT 2005 Analysis - Pour in your thoughts thread

Better4Worse has a geniune concern here. How to get your resume across. From what I know there should be a way without an MBA and withou campus recruitments. But also from what I believe there should be something in your past which can substantiate your claim. I mean if they started entertaining anyone and everyone with an interest in consulting they are dead meat. Think about it. The McKinsey office in Mumbai would have about 20,000 freshers making a beeline. You could have bunch of resumes which read like "Worked for ABC in Library Management System, Inventory System" "Being engineer have good quantitative and analytical skills" blah blah blah ..........

Here is a layman speak of what the different strats in consulting are:

Tier-1: Client comes with a solution to fix the problem. You bill them per hour and try to make a quick buck. Not much brains. Chief diffrentiator is $/hour. So in order to be more competitive there is a lot of "sweatshops" in India. Promoted by most major Indian companies as well as the global biggies. Read this:
http://www.indicthreads.com/content/view/316/0/1/0/
Tier-2: Client comes with a problem. Doesn't have solution. I am not sure that even the so-called IT consultants in India are in this space. Though they claim to be there. I'm talking about the Accentures, the Cap-Geminis, the IBMs, the Sapients etc. Chief diffrentiator is more about expertise in that domain backed up by strong team in the US.

Tier-3: Client does not even know what the problem is, let alone the solution. The consultants figure out the problem with the solution for it and may or maynot help them fix it. May go to Tier-1 and Tier-2 for implementation. From what I gather the McK, BCG etc are in this space.

Just my $0.02.

Another thing that I wanted to mention here is the ample amount of people who are interested in consulting but are not aware of what it takes to get there. Its a great job and has envious returns. But all is not hunky dory.

I have seen some amazing people who can walk into any room without any knowledge of the domain, the technology or the processes. Yet, ask simple straight forward questions, *think* through the problem and get to speed in no time. They are the true consultants. Who are extremely smart. When I say smart, I mean it. I am sorry, and don't want to stir a hornet's nest but I really don't think the Indian education system prepares us for this. We go by the give-me-data-ill-figure-it-out. But what is required is ability to handle ambiguity. The ability to make certain presumptions and work out the solution. To backtrack and fix some assumptions and still be right. The ability to accept that no one knows everything and hence ask dumb questions. And most importantly, think on your feet and not feel "I don't know much so have to ramp up before I can contribute" mentality.

The bottom line is, and excuse me if Im repeating myself, be smart.

Is that all ? Hell, no ! There are other qualities, I will list some of them:

(a) Articulation. You need to kiss the blarney's stone. I think I do have some of it. I can prattle away winningly on the topic of the day with the self-assurance of monk. But I have seen people who have held me spell-bound by their wizardry of words and charisma. Incidentally, charisma is a greek word for "gift of goods". The way I see it: Either you have it or you don't.

(b) Hard work. Not just the number of hours but also the pressure of deadlines. To be on your feet. Thinking and moving at the same time, believe me, can be harder than you think.

(c) Travel. Yes the biggest pain point of all. Breakfast in London, lunch in Paris and dinner in New York (okay that was some exaggeration) might sound "cool". Not when you are married and want to settle down with a cold beer in front of the TV watching your favourite show. My brother who was in India with PwC consulting had to travel for a few months to weird places like Munger in Bihar (ITC) for a BPR work.

Hope it helps clarifies a few finer aspects.

Arun

Dude read my post clearly...You can overcome a not so good background if everything else rocks...Even if you are from a very good college you still need to have bloody everything to get in here...so my point.
Your process improvements of course hold a lot of value but that is not the first thing that they see .Getting your resume through is the tough point. Things get progressively tougher after that though....

I wanna take this a little further convo...

Dude ..... explain the line in 'bold' !

Lets break the "TOUGH" aspect as much as we can for the benefit of people with non consulting background.

Convo boss.....walk us thru the series of events that usually happen.....before one lands up with interview call with the consulting firm...and what there after?........ what is one to expect in an interview with one such company?....preperation regime (if any !) / preperation material (other than Case studies at BCG/Vault .........they dont discuss the fine, nitty gritties.....??)

Any online reserve... for case studies with complete analysis for proper learning??

(Arun, Suhas....guys pitch in with ur thoughts..)

I am being 'point specific' with the stuff here on the post.....I hope the GODS of the consulting world and the MODS have no issue's with it. I believe with my doing so....more people get a chance to share opinion and experiences.

Abhishek
Better4worse

(PS: Anyone responding to the post......I request u to see the post as a series of Q's ...expect u to ans each seperately !)

Oh boy.....we are only getting started here....
1. Non IITian/BITS...almost makes u a non starter. (convo is very kind here....says stuff euphemistically)

Being a non IItian ..is beginining to feel like a congenital/birth defect !

2. Non MBA....makes u sumbody with feet cast in steel ( a non mover)

Let it out guys.....lets us know all the ODDS against.. now that we are at it ! :)

Jokes apart....

just wondering i have a couple of process improvements/changes....to my name! Do they hold any value in the consulting world.??

Better4worse

Dude read my post clearly...You can overcome a not so good background if everything else rocks...Even if you are from a very good college you still need to have bloody everything to get in here...so my point.
Your process improvements of course hold a lot of value but that is not the first thing that they see .Getting your resume through is the tough point. Things get progressively tougher after that though....

Kya convo!!! Just cause expandinghorizon couldnt match your CAT score you dumped him and are now after some Hitchhiker:wink:

K

Abe teri......

Saale don't get started again. Poor abhishek hasn't been in the forum since CAT day and Ive know hitchhiker for quite sometime now. Oye DG just curious a 1000 posts but does anyone in PG know who you are..Its to your credit that inspite of being a committed anti-social you are successful in gettin people to respond Dont turn this thread into another of those arbit ones. Kindly maintain the sanctitiy.

And bugger why did you edit my post from "asking you" to "asking you out".

Kya convo!!! Just cause expandinghorizon couldnt match your CAT score you dumped him and are now after some Hitchhiker:wink:

K

some HitchHiker?

Bite your tongue desi!!

convolutedsignal Says

Oye Vaibhav..Ive been askin u out for like 6 months now, if u r interested its possible even now...

Kya convo!!! Just cause expandinghorizon couldnt match your CAT score you dumped him and are now after some Hitchhiker:wink:

K

Oh boy.....we are only getting started here....
1. Non IITian/BITS...almost makes u a non starter. (convo is very kind here....says stuff euphemistically)

Being a non IItian ..is beginining to feel like a congenital/birth defect !

2. Non MBA....makes u sumbody with feet cast in steel ( a non mover)

Let it out guys.....lets us know all the ODDS against.. now that we are at it ! :)

Jokes apart....

just wondering i have a couple of process improvements/changes....to my name! Do they hold any value in the consulting world.??

Better4worse

convolutedsignal Says

Oye Vaibhav..Ive been askin u for like 6 months now, if u r interested

hehehe... dude... any doubt i might have had stands resolved after this exceptional thread of yours...

Oye Vaibhav..Ive been askin u for like 6 months now, if u r interested

Ok clarification time. The opinions on elitism of consulting firms are not for us to decide. These firms are elitist as a matter of differentiating. A consulting firm is built purely on the reputation of its people as there is no technology or product to represent the firm. Even among MBAs not many get into strat consulting positions. It would be very difficult for a non IIMA,C guy to get into say a Mckinsey or a BCG. All consulting firms have a league mentality and not one firm is an exception to this rule. even among US bschools there is fierce competition for that elusive consulting position. It is true that there is elitism even in the Indian context but it is not a be all and end all. case studies are complex and the case interviewer would be noticing every aspect of your approach to that problem. Unless you have been trained to problem solve it is not easy. This was my primary point. Smartness and tier 1 colleges are not just one single set. It is a factor beyond what college you go to or where u r from. If ur resume's only 'defect' is that it doesnt carry a good institutes name but u have amazing acads and extra currics alongwith problem solving skills I don't see that stopping you. How many ppl from the top colleges do u think get into these firms 1% would be a very optimistic number. So if you do not have one parameter, work on the others. pm me and we'll take this forward. please do not digress this topic into uneccessaryn directions. everyone here knows that intelligence and elitism are not synonymous but the corporate world is not that smart....

boss.... i might have a thing or two to say abt the three IIT and BITS thing but lets not get things ugly here... this is nt the purpose of the thread...

better4worse... to become an analyst u don't HAVE to be an IITian.... but then if u have a brand name behind u, companies feel more comfy hiring u..... tht is the ONLY thing..... IITians IN GENERAL wud have beter analytical abilities, but does nt mean all IITians are good or all other non-IITians are bad... so coming back to ur ques... bcoz the number of consultancies is much less than the number of say IT companies, there are fewer openings floating around... so generally companies are hiring ppl from these instuitutes.... but say u manage to get an interview (like Convo managed with Mckinsey) and are able to impress the interviewer, there is no stopping u.....

but rest assured... there is NO way a non-MBA is gonna do as well as an MBA when it comes to rising within the organisation... there might not be much diff b/w the two, but clients like their consultants to know everything under the sun, and obviously the comfy factor brouht abt by the degree behind the name comes into play here too..... so if u want to get into consulting better get an MBA... there is NO other alternative...

HTH....ATB

Ok I thought I'd kick back some life into this thread by posting a little bit about Strat consulting..

What is strat consulting?
Basically advicing companies on their strategy. Usually very specific to a certain area, HR, outsourcing, M&A; and so on. The higher you go the more the companies need to pay. So its usually a case of swoop in , understand the mess, give sum data backed gyaan on how to clean the mess, actually clean the mess if the company asks you to and finally charge 200 dollars an hour while doing it

Who works there?
Contrary to popular perception, you don't necessarily need an MBA to work for a strat consulting firm. Every consulting firm has a divison of analysts working to back the consultants with specific data and also to provide a research backing in the form of syndicated research on specific markets/industries . A good proportion of analysts are engineers in addition to the regular MBAs. Also graduates from well known colleges also stand a good chance in the support category.

What do they do?
I am sure none of the MBA's are reading this so let me address the better half of the population- the engineers. You will have to analyse data. Simple no?? Not really. Very few engineering colleges in India have a hard problem solving approach to teaching and so not everyone will find the job of making some sense out of a bunch of data easy or appealing. Also it is my personal experience that other than students from colleges which test your problem solving ability others find it tough to get through the case studies. The thrill of the job lies in the challenge that you face every day trying to give some structure to some arcane piece of unstructured data. Of course there is a great deal of searching involved. In google we trust. But at the end of the day there is a certain degree of mental satisfaction involved like the one you get after solving medium level SUDOKU

What's the life like?
Pretty good actually. Most consulting firms are US based and do believe in concepts like a 10 hour workday and free weekends. Moreover the lifestyle is good because of added perks (healthclub, golf, theatre) The pay is good. The good thing about the pay is that they give you you what they claim and the bonuses are extremely performance oriented..and u get what u deserve.

So the BIG question; How do you get in?
India is on the verge of becoming a research hub (in the consulting context). The cheap cost of an Indian analyst is a major factor apart from our brilliant engineers. Most consulting firms take pride in the number of engineers they hire and India has abundant talent. Unfortuantely they are also very elitist because consulting firms byt default operate on a league mentality. So bein an IITian(the top 3) or a BITSian helps. I know a good number of Stephanians also in the hunt. You need a capability to analyse. Try the case studies at www.mckinsey.com or www.bcg.com . www.vault.com is an international portal for MBAs. and they have some really good articles and goodies for consulting jobs. try out the case studies. Get the ability to give shape to any form of unstructured data. Example: How many marriages happen every year in Delhi? Think about it.

I have put in a few points which I felt were of basic nature. Please note that the above points need not be relevant to IT consulting or operations consulting. And anyone who wants further info please use the thread to post questions. Will be helpful to all.I am also on the look out for a few research analysts (1-2) you have to fit in all the above qualities and so do pm me only after confirming this.

Hi there convo....

All's well with reading case studies at BCG /Mckinsey/ vault........ but what after that.....??? Cryptic enuff or not....is not the question.......Convo...u can maybe guide ppl....tell us is it justified for ordinary mortals (Non IIT's and non BITS) to harbour ideas regarding a career in strat consulting...??

If u think " yes"....... then be kind enuff to suggest ways to get around the system being an 'ordinary' mortal in the so called elitist world.

Anyone else with suggestions/ideas/opinion.....is most welcome to opine on this one.

Better4worse

(PS : Lets try not being cryptic here...! )

nice post there Convo....
wz wonderin..if som1 cud revive this thread...and there u go...

gud job....