Hi guys

Great work on this thread. Keep it up!

I am a final year mech. engg student in IIT. Will be applying after about 2.5-3 years work-ex.

I wanna know how one should go about researching b-schools. I was looking at some rankings and there are so many discrepancies between different rankings. For eg. according to FT, Cornell is ranked at 36 but according to BW, it is ranked at 7. Similarly, Fuqua@Duke (Simba plz note!) is ranked at 27 according to FT but 11 according to BW. So how can we make sense of these rankings? Which is the best and most reliable ranking?

Thanks!

All you experts out there. I have a question on VISA.
If a person has exhausted x number of years from the 6 yr for H1-B. Will the clock start fresh after doing an MBA i.e. after the OPT period? Or will it be (6 - x) number of years available on H1-B post MBA?

Thanks and Appreciated



I don't think this is the place for a classified AD. You could PM'ed him too.

hey kgkid...

I think I need to defend Kunal here....please read his post carefully and u'll realise its not a "classified AD". Keep reading the post till u realise that, else PM me...i'll tell u how...

Salazar

6-x yrs. The clock is reset after you spend a year outside the USA.

All you experts out there. I have a question on VISA.
If a person has exhausted x number of years from the 6 yr for H1-B. Will the clock start fresh after doing an MBA i.e. after the OPT period? Or will it be (6 - x) number of years available on H1-B post MBA?

Thanks and Appreciated

-------------------------------------------------------------------


No selling of materials on forums.

- Edit by ReachMonil.

I don't think this is the place for a classified AD. You could PM'ed him too.

Simba Says

Why dont u order it on Amazon. It may take a month, but guess , it is worth it! :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------


No selling of materials on forums.

- Edit by ReachMonil.

Hi,

I would like to know details about Grenoble (France) Mater In International Business programe.
What is the the quality and recognition of this program?
How is it different from MBA program?
What are the job oppurtunities?

Pls. throw some light on this!

Thanks!

Hello,
Looking forward to some info abt Uni-Cincinnati MBA Program.
How is its repuatation,quality,strengths....also how is its standing among employers generally & rankings nationally.
Is it a distinct advantage doing 1 year MBA against 2 year one over long term?

Thx
Sid.

Hey sid.

I dunno much abt the Cincinnati MBA program...but it takes an average GMAT score of 560, which tells me it is no a very reputed school. You might want to consider.

As for the 1-2 ys course, the one year executive programs are gud, but they are very tough to get into...and need a LOT of work-ex. The other 1yr programs (eg INSEAD) are gud, but again tougher to get thru, as they look for work-ex in managerial positions.

The fact that a 1 yr MBA is more xclusive, and generally more rigoruous, makes up for the one year difference. The only shortcoming cud be the absence of a stint of internship. The advantage is that you end up saving a year...

A 1yr MBA is generally at the cost of a better 2 yr program elsewhere....

Salazar

Hello,
Looking forward to some info abt Uni-Cincinnati MBA Program.
How is its repuatation,quality,strengths....also how is its standing among employers generally & rankings nationally.
Is it a distinct advantage doing 1 year MBA against 2 year one over long term?

Thx
Sid.

Hi all..

I am presently working as a software engineer in a banking domain firm (bank is ranked under top 3 worldwide)..with a work experience of 8 months.
I plan to work here..for couple of years more ..so that i will have something solid and worthwhile to be stated on my profile.
I have done my engineering from National institute of technology (formerly REC), and academically..I have sound background, being consistely in top 5 throughout the schooling and top 15% in college.Can get reco from my PM and prof emiterus from college.
I am planning to appear for GMAT in coming time.But even before I can think of a "phoren MBA"..I need to get the following queries sorted out...so guys please help.

1) With my above profile..and a decent score..say 680+..what are my chances of getting admit and schol from good B schools at US??

2)Even if i get schol..say a normal one..then also..what is the minimum amount of investment required to pursue the dream....MBA from US!!....??The maximum loan or investment i will be able to cope up with would be 6-8 lakhs....

3)I know..top 10-15 US b schools are really costly..so I cant even thing of them to apply..because even if by chance I get admit..I wont be able to go because of the finance factor..so can you guys please suggest me some good B schools on which i should concentrate on..and go ahead with my research...??please suggest me some schools with respect to....
i) ROI-return of investment
ii) Chances of aid..and financial requirement.
iii) job opportunities.

for example..I came to know about SMEAL ..penn state...its a decent school..with 17 indians admitted last year (3-4 years of work on avg)..and out of them 12 got full fundings!!!...also..the school is decently ranked 37th( on avg)..by financial times, US news and other sources.
So guys can u please suggest be such schools??
I know..its too early for me to do the research and all..as i need to concentrate on GMAT and other stuffs..but if u all can pleas ehelp me out..I can start working on networking..and can narrow down my searches.

Thanks and regards,

Pranay

Hi pranay...

A few things, (all based on funda collecetd on PG..God bless the pple)

1> No univ asks for academic recos, the recos required are from your work-places.

2> You have a pretty decent profile, and there is no reason you should be looking at a 37th rank univ. You can easily shoot for the "stars".

3> Even tho a schol is difficult to secure in a high ranked B-School, the pay-back periods on the loan range from 3-5 years, so are pretty manageable.

4> Lastly, there is no substitute for good research, and it is never too early for it. Also I'd advise you to do some introspection, to find out your own reasons for doing a "MBA from US". It can be a dream, but has to be a means to an end, it cant be (i hopt not)...a stand alone dream.

I think figuring out wht u really want to do...will help u zero in on the B-Schools u shud go for...and will also help u in writing ur essays.

All the best.

Salazar

Akshat,
Job permits are NOT that difficult in Europe. Plus remember quality of life is MUCH MUCH better in Europe than in US.

I generally avoid categorical statements as there can never be generalizations! Spati, why do u say that?

1) With my above profile..and a decent score..say 680+..what are my chances of getting admit and schol from good B schools at US??

680+ is not a decent score ??: Start off with a higher limit! With great academics & solid work experience, you need to boost up ur app with a sexy GMAT score!

2)Even if i get schol..say a normal one..then also..what is the minimum amount of investment required to pursue the dream....MBA from US!!....??The maximum loan or investment i will be able to cope up with would be 6-8 lakhs....

With 680, your chances of getting a schol is highly unlikely. Do not use the term from MBA from US. Its too broad a category, define ur purpose first. Filter your schools. target the ones u want.. etc etc. Minimum investment without any aids would be approximately about 100,000 $ for Top schools.. say top 10-15. With schols, it will be substantially less but am not sure of the figures here.

Loans from India are not a viable solution when aiming for a Top MBA program in US. Pl visit my blog (here) & search for 'Financing' .. you will come across a huge post which will answer a lot of concerns

3)I know..top 10-15 US b schools are really costly..so I cant even thing of them to apply..because even if by chance I get admit..I wont be able to go because of the finance factor..so can you guys please suggest me some good B schools on which i should concentrate on..and go ahead with my research...??please suggest me some schools with respect to....
i) ROI-return of investment
ii) Chances of aid..and financial requirement.
iii) job opportunities.

Finance should not be a big deterent if you make it to top schools. Read the above blog post I have mentioned. I cannot suggest any other schools .. we are just an assitance desk, you can make better use of stuff like rankings & google! Maybe if someone else can shed light her, they are welcome!!

All I can say is, Do your research!

Simba -

Well on a serious note Sandeep, try taking the GMAT by early July because most of the schools will start the application process somewhere in July/August '06 for the Fall '07 intake. Similarly, for each year.

Some schools that already have are IIM Ahd. ISB will prolly do it in early July. Most US b-school will start in late July/early August.

Lollzz..! kgkid, post only here if u have something to contribute, no spamming this thread.


@sandeep0979 - Be specific in ur queries mate! And post it on the appropriate thread or you wont get a replly. Head to the GMAT Query Centre.

sorry bro. just that it seemed a pretty lame question.

kgkid Says

When u r ready

Lollzz..! kgkid, post only here if u have something to contribute, no spamming this thread.


@sandeep0979 - Be specific in ur queries mate! And post it on the appropriate thread or you wont get a replly. Head to the GMAT Query Centre.

Hi Folks,

What is the best time to give the GMAT so that one
can apply to most Top US and European MBA prog.

Appreciate a reply.

When u r ready

Hi Folks,

What is the best time to give the GMAT so that one
can apply to most Top US and European MBA prog.

Appreciate a reply.

senapati Says

Not sure what you mean. Isn't UK and England refer to the same country??

@senapati

UK=eng+scotland +wales+northern ireland

Maybe that's what he meant!

Also do remember that Job permits are a bit difficult in europe.

Akshat,
Can't say that after HSMP in UK.
Job permits are NOT that difficult in Europe. Plus remember quality of life is MUCH MUCH better in Europe than in US.

im very keen on doing a second mba, preferably from england (not UK plz).

Not sure what you mean. Isn't UK and England refer to the same country??

Hi all..

I am presently working as a software engineer in a banking domain firm (bank is ranked under top 3 worldwide)..with a work experience of 8 months.
I plan to work here..for couple of years more ..so that i will have something solid and worthwhile to be stated on my profile.
I have done my engineering from National institute of technology (formerly REC), and academically..I have sound background, being consistely in top 5 throughout the schooling and top 15% in college.Can get reco from my PM and prof emiterus from college.
I am planning to appear for GMAT in coming time.But even before I can think of a "phoren MBA"..I need to get the following queries sorted out...so guys please help.

1) With my above profile..and a decent score..say 680+..what are my chances of getting admit and schol from good B schools at US??

2)Even if i get schol..say a normal one..then also..what is the minimum amount of investment required to pursue the dream....MBA from US!!....??The maximum loan or investment i will be able to cope up with would be 6-8 lakhs....

3)I know..top 10-15 US b schools are really costly..so I cant even thing of them to apply..because even if by chance I get admit..I wont be able to go because of the finance factor..so can you guys please suggest me some good B schools on which i should concentrate on..and go ahead with my research...??please suggest me some schools with respect to....
i) ROI-return of investment
ii) Chances of aid..and financial requirement.
iii) job opportunities.

for example..I came to know about SMEAL ..penn state...its a decent school..with 17 indians admitted last year (3-4 years of work on avg)..and out of them 12 got full fundings!!!...also..the school is decently ranked 37th( on avg)..by financial times, US news and other sources.
So guys can u please suggest be such schools??
I know..its too early for me to do the research and all..as i need to concentrate on GMAT and other stuffs..but if u all can pleas ehelp me out..I can start working on networking..and can narrow down my searches.

Thanks and regards,

Pranay

Hi Simba -

You stated something about some of the schools not considering you if you already have done an MBA Deg. I am interested only in Stanford, Harvard, Kellogs and wharton. Do these schools have any such funda.

I have done my MMS from Bombay University some 7 years back and looking at doing a MBA from only the above B-schools.

If you are so sure of the schools u want to go for, you must take some time off to research each of them. Each school will have its admission requirements on its website!

hey,

im a 20yr old, final year mba student from a top 10 institute in india... i also have 6 mnths work ex and an exceptional cv (excelling in sports, music,theatre etc on an national and international basis).

im very keen on doing a second mba, preferably from england (not UK plz). what would the procedure b?? will work ex still b an important criterion inspite of me avin already completed an mba? does my cv help?

plzzzzzz help urgently required!!!!

thanks

xxx
Life's Good

Sorry.. I have no idea about this!

Hi Simba -

You stated something about some of the schools not considering you if you already have done an MBA Deg. I am interested only in Stanford, Harvard, Kellogs and wharton. Do these schools have any such funda.

I have done my MMS from Bombay University some 7 years back and looking at doing a MBA from only the above B-schools.

hey,

im a 20yr old, final year mba student from a top 10 institute in india... i also have 6 mnths work ex and an exceptional cv (excelling in sports, music,theatre etc on an national and international basis).

im very keen on doing a second mba, preferably from england (not UK plz). what would the procedure b?? will work ex still b an important criterion inspite of me avin already completed an mba? does my cv help?

plzzzzzz help urgently required!!!!

thanks

xxx
Life's Good

Hi,

A very simple question Can anyone tell me if the book "How to get into Top MBA Program by Richard MOntek" is available in their city ? Bangalore/Pune/Delhi etc?

I am in Hyd and tried here but cpouldnot get a copy of it.

Regards,
Anuj

Why dont u order it on Amazon. It may take a month, but guess , it is worth it!

akshatpa Says

Statement of Financial Proof. The Doc that needs to be submitted for getting I-20

Yes, everything can be shown as ur assets... mutual funds, bonds, nsc, shares, house, land, car, jewellery etc etc...

Sure nagpal..

Thanks for the pointers.

Cheers,
XYZ

Hi,

A very simple question Can anyone tell me if the book "How to get into Top MBA Program by Richard MOntek" is available in their city ? Bangalore/Pune/Delhi etc?

I am in Hyd and tried here but cpouldnot get a copy of it.

Regards,
Anuj

Hi XYZ

one suggestion. refrain from replicating your queries. wastes others' time.

Cheers

Kunal

Hi,

A very simple question Can anyone tell me if the book "How to get into Top MBA Program by Richard MOntek" is available in their city ? Bangalore/Pune/Delhi etc?

I am in Hyd and tried here but cpouldnot get a copy of it.

Regards,
Anuj

saurabh123 Says

Hey guys I am working in Cummins India Ltd. I am planning for an MBA abroad by aug 2007. Pen down your experiences and also let me know any stuff which i need to know. thanks

Hie Saurabh, please go through the first post of the thread. We would be entertaining specific queries only. No beating around the bush. And, No experinces on this thread.

Also, for any stuff which u need to know, U first think about what u wanna do and why?

Simba Says

SFP???? :neutral:

Statement of Financial Proof. The Doc that needs to be submitted for getting I-20

Hey guys I am working in Cummins India Ltd. I am planning for an MBA abroad by aug 2007. Pen down your experiences and also let me know any stuff which i need to know. thanks

Its the classic case of choosing between higher ranked univ with no scholarship and lower ranked one with hefty scholarship. Had it been 10 -12 grands, I'd have ignored. But 34k for the 1st year makes me consider it seriously.

See which of the programs fit your future plans... in terms of placement, network, brand value etc etc. Go to a place where you think you will grow. As I dont know much about either of the 2 places, I would not be a right person to comment. But if YOU are worried about $ for 2 yrs, it will make sense to go for one with scholarship!

Simbaaaa

Hi

For the preperation of SFP we need to show 1st year expenses in liquid and acess to second year expenses which may be in the form of fixed assets.

Most of my savings are in the form of Mutual Funds and Shares. Can this be shown in the SFP.

Regards

akshat

SFP????

Hi All,

Now I have few questions in my mind

1) What if I go for some good school in India for MBA thru CAT then maybe after some years of exp, I apply to unis abroad.

2) Will unis abroad (esp US) accept this as I am obviously not targeting top 25.

3) Is it good idea to start preparing for GMAT and just keep on working because it will take another year or so to get admission. I will be able to secure admission in good universities with this profile.

4)What should be the target score for GMAT if I go after MBA.

5)My target is 25-50 in US or 10-15 in UK or top 5 in Aus, is it possible. What shld be the ideal score for GMAT?

Please reply as this can be very crucial for me. You all can understand this very well.

Thanks and Regards

1) Sure u can do it. But be aware some of the TOP univs abroad do not accept prior MBA.

2) Oh, if not top 25, I guess they will. You will have to do ur own research!

3) What? I thot u will do ur MBA abroad after a few years! ??: So, why are u starting to study now?

4) Hmm.. something above 700 is decent. But a higher score doesnt hurt

5) Read the first post again, esp the blue high lighted one

Simbaaaaaa

Hi folks,

I had posted this in another thread but it was closed. So i am pasting it here expecting replies from the likes of PG, Simba, senapati, poseidon etc....

here it goes....


Hi friends,

I have been admitted to Olin school of business, washington univ in St louis and Babson university.

I request stalwarts to help me decide which univ to choose as there isnt much difference in the rankings (BW rankings).

My profile

wrk ex - 2 yrs

Industry -- IT-Banking

GMAT -- 710

Goals -- Financial Consulting (Strategy).


After my bit of R&D;, this what I have concluded.


Washington - Olin

Pros

1. Better known school for finance and consulting.
2. Small class size of arnd 140. (Biggest attraction for me as i am a career switcher hence personal access is imperative).
3. No major schools in and arnd the location (St Louis) and decent cluster of companies. So decent chances of local placements.

Cons

1. $ 90 k fees for two years. (Biggest worry factor.)
2. No scholarship.
3. Loan given by the univ is $15k/yr (that too will be confirmed after I join the program.)
4. Huge debt burden after grad.


Babson Univ

Pros

1. $34000 scholarship for the first year (Biggest attraction for me).
Have no idea abt aid for 2nd yr as I have yet to negotiate with the school.

2. Lesser Debt burden after graduation.

3. Location - Boston (bit expensive but more job prospects).

4. Has the brand recognition but because of its entrepreneurial program.

Cons

1. Again Location. With schools like Harvard, MIT, BU etc in the locality, job search will be tougher.

2. I am not sure about its performance in finance and consulting specializations.

3. Class size of 350 (Kinda puts me off)


Its the classic case of choosing between higher ranked univ with no scholarship and lower ranked one with hefty scholarship. Had it been 10 -12 grands, I'd have ignored. But 34k for the 1st year makes me consider it seriously.

I need suggestions regarding the choice of school. PG, Senapati, Poseidon n other champs, Please provide inputs and info you have which can help clear the air of confusion and take the right decision.

Regards,
GM

Hi All,

My prior acads are not at all extra ordinary (revolve around 60% in 10th and 12th, 53% in grads). Presently pursuing PG diploma in Finance from Rajasthan university(expecting something around 55 types).

Whenever I check websites of universities and profiles of students, I get confused; looking at there age(average is 29,I m 21),looking at there experience(average is 5 years,Right now I have just 1 year exp and may be I ll have 2.5 at the time of admission).

Now I have few questions in my mind

1) What if I go for some good school in India for MBA thru CAT then maybe after some years of exp, I apply to unis abroad.

2) Will unis abroad (esp US) accept this as I am obviously not targeting top 25.

Many US schools do not allow a second MBA degree ie if you already have a MBA degree you may not be eligible for some of them. If u are really targetting good b-schools in India, you might not need a second MBA degree from US. An academic course is never a subsitute for work ex.

kunjai| Says

3) Is it good idea to start preparing for GMAT and just keep on working because it will take another year or so to get admission. I will be able to secure admission in good universities with this profile.

GMAT scores are valid for 5 years and hence it may be a good idea to give them when you are in college as mostly it is difficult to find time for preperation while you are working. If your acads are a problem try working for a Good GMAT score to compensate for the same. If you have a good work ex and co-curricular activities that would help you much more than anything. Most b schools like a balanced profile and good leadership and team skills, if you stories to demostrate that you would sail through even with low acads.

kunjai Says

4)What should be the target score for GMAT if I go after MBA.

Target scores before and after MBA would not matter much. If you have significant quality work ex and community activities, you might get a relaxation in GMAT scores but definately not because of a MBA degree

|kunjai Says

5)My target is 25-50 in US or 10-15 in UK or top 5 in Aus, is it possible. What shld be the ideal score for GMAT?

There is nothing of sort of a target score as there are applicants with 750+ GMAT who are unable to secure admission. though 700+ is considered respectable.

A word of caution; securing a job in below 20 rank US b-schools and is really difficult. There are loads of indian students who realize their mistake after joining in such institutes. Do not just choose a lower rank univ just because you feel that you may not be able to compete with others. Instead set a goal and try to work out a strategy to achieve that goal. If you are in a position to finance your education and interested in a MBA abroad for international experience only then go for these institutes, otherwise it would be a highly risky situation. Also do remember that Job permits are a bit difficult in europe.

Would suggest that you do a sufficient research on whether an international MBA suits your career plans. Read through the tons of material on internet and elsewhere. (there is plent of info available even on PG). Then decide suitable and work for the same.

Regards

Akshat

Hi All,

I am highly confused as all other aspirants out there.

My prior acads are not at all extra ordinary (revolve around 60% in 10th and 12th, 53% in grads). Presently pursuing PG diploma in Finance from Rajasthan university(expecting something around 55 types).

Whenever I check websites of universities and profiles of students, I get confused; looking at there age(average is 29,I m 21),looking at there experience(average is 5 years,Right now I have just 1 year exp and may be I ll have 2.5 at the time of admission).

Now I have few questions in my mind

1) What if I go for some good school in India for MBA thru CAT then maybe after some years of exp, I apply to unis abroad.

2) Will unis abroad (esp US) accept this as I am obviously not targeting top 25.

3) Is it good idea to start preparing for GMAT and just keep on working because it will take another year or so to get admission. I will be able to secure admission in good universities with this profile.

4)What should be the target score for GMAT if I go after MBA.

5)My target is 25-50 in US or 10-15 in UK or top 5 in Aus, is it possible. What shld be the ideal score for GMAT?

Please reply as this can be very crucial for me. You all can understand this very well.

Thanks and Regards

Simba Says

Hey I will modify Monil's post above!! :)

Gr8!
Now we need to make the first post sticky, how do we do that?!

ankush_infy Says

hey, i searched the forums and i have collected a lot of info from the forums. thanks. but i have still to go thru ur articles on international MBA though went thru the ones which u have written about ur B school tenure. they r really gr8

LOL, first lesson... u are looking at admissions... LOL, read about them first!! Just kidding... But seriously, U need to go thro all the articles before u ask any questions!

Hey I will modify Monil's post above!!

Simba Says

Yup. He said the stuff I would have! Thanks :)

hey, i searched the forums and i have collected a lot of info from the forums. thanks. but i have still to go thru ur articles on international MBA though went thru the ones which u have written about ur B school tenure. they r really gr8

Hi Ankush

look around in the forum. most of the info you need and prob more that that is available. search around.
extra-curr wud require sum other things as well.
placement secretary of the coll? now why dont i remember your being so? ;-)
Cheers
Kunal

Yup. He said the stuff I would have! Thanks

ankush_infy Says

u r kunal nagpal from civil branc right??

Yup.
pure, still looking for a gf , still no-nonsense, loads of extra punch, GMAT tuned Kunal from PEC.

Cheers

u r kunal nagpal from civil branc right??

hi,
i m also taking up GMAT this year in july. i have 1.8 yrs work ex till now at infy. will most probabaly apply to NUS , ISB this year and will apply to US B schools next year when i'll have 3.5 years work ex. will really need help from u guys here.
i m an electrical engg from Punjab Engg College, chandigarh with 70%. regarding extra curr. i was the placemnet secretar of my college and also the class representative of my branch. also took part in some technical paper presentations.
hey, simba it will be really helpful if u could evaluate my profile. i m really interested in appying to top 15 US B-schools and getting thru.
how can i increase my extra curr in my job? some people asked me to join some community service. ..

Hi Ankush

look around in the forum. most of the info you need and prob more that that is available. search around.
extra-curr wud require sum other things as well.
placement secretary of the coll? now why dont i remember your being so? ;-)
Cheers
Kunal

1) Read my articles on Pagalguy.com. The list of articles are available at - http://simba.pagalguy.com/articles/
I have clearly mentioned some of the characteristics for doing an MBA abroad. No, ur 6 months wont be sufficient! Minimum, 3-5 years of experience is reqd to get sufficient value of an MBA.

2) All work ex will be considered at the time u start ur b-school.

hi,
i m also taking up GMAT this year in july. i have 1.8 yrs work ex till now at infy. will most probabaly apply to NUS , ISB this year and will apply to US B schools next year when i'll have 3.5 years work ex. will really need help from u guys here.
i m an electrical engg from Punjab Engg College, chandigarh with 70%. regarding extra curr. i was the placemnet secretar of my college and also the class representative of my branch. also took part in some technical paper presentations.
hey, simba it will be really helpful if u could evaluate my profile. i m really interested in appying to top 15 US B-schools and getting thru.
how can i increase my extra curr in my job? some people asked me to join some community service. ..

I am a final yr student got into Syntel Inc.I am going to take GMAT this December(2006).
Is it rite to plan for Fall 2008 or more work ex required?
Can u plz tell me the minimum work ex is for US MBA is 2 yrs.But is it before entering the college or before filling the application form??

1)
I have clearly mentioned some of the characteristics for doing an MBA abroad. No, ur 6 months wont be sufficient! Minimum, 3-5 years of experience is reqd to get sufficient value of an MBA.

2) All work ex will be considered at the time u start ur b-school.

Hie guys,

We are starting this thread to cater to any generic queries related to B-schools abroad. You will also have veterans answer to your queries out here on the thread.

Also, merging all relevant threads with this one.


PS: Please guide newbies who start new threads for the same to this thread.

I am a final yr student got into Syntel Inc.I am going to take GMAT this December(2006).
Is it rite to plan for Fall 2008 or more work ex required?
Can u plz tell me the minimum work ex is for US MBA is 2 yrs.But is it before entering the college or before filling the application form??