Hello sir,
I need some help. I am a Btech graduate (Industrial Biotech). Have some good acads from School. But didn't want to continue into research work and wanted to take a job. Got a campus placement in Cognizant, but due to recession my offer got delayed and that is when i got multiple offers from Govt banks (PSB). Had to take it.
I have my strengths in analyzing things and providing practical solutions to it. I have won many non technical events including case study events. I am kind of guy who would like to take in the opportunity available and put full effort into it.
So far i have worked for 1 yr in marketing in a pvt company and 2 yrs as Asst Manager in a govt bank. Roles were not limited to branch management & Marketing. I have done some certification in banking (CAIIB). I have resigned from my job as i wasn't satisfied with the work environment. too much of target pressures & less growth. I thought i would score well in cat. but i ended up with just 86%le. i missed other exams by 1-3 marks. want to join college this year itself.
I have got the following calls, IRMA, tier 2 institutes like TAPMI, FORE, IFMR...
My ques are,
1. the placements in these tier 2 colleges are again in marketing and banking. I don't want to go back to product selling & target oriented jobs. I am looking for a general organisation management job, but i don't think i will get one in these colleges. Can u suggest me alternative job types.
2. Else the other only way seems to be in Equity Research & other investment product research field. How good are the opportunities for a guy like me who has no experience in that field. Will a MBA Finance and CFA levels help me? What kind of job would that be?
3. I am planning to join Financial Engineering course in IFMR chennai. Will that help me ?
thanks in advance.

Hello Sir

The posts in the forum encouraged the shy extrovert in me to take out the the deepest question buried inside my heart. Before I post the question I will share my story.

I am an MBA in marketing from a reputed 2 tier institute. I was campus placed and joined the banking sector as it was offering me a job in my hometown.( read it a blunder)
I was never interested in the job in that industry. Frustrated and depressed I resigned from the job after 7 months to join my family business. (FAMILY PRESSURE) Somehow I kept that hope inside me alive to get into the market research/ consulting industry and make a fresh start. Luckily I got through a decent company as well in Bangalore.
This time I was brainwashed by my parents, relatives..emotionally blackmailed by grandparents I decided I will have to pursue the legacy of family business.
But Like is not so easy.
The individual inside me could nt keep quite fr a long time. I started applying again. Its been 4 months I left that job. I am not getting calls from the industry I am interested in. I have lost all hope and happiness. I am still handling business but deep down every single hour it crosses my mind what have I done with my life.

Please suggest what should I do ?

PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.... coz u can only pursue it ...never achieve it

The confusion is that 1st thng 1st I wana go 4 civil services any which way so i thought why not go for MA in eng lit. from DU
coz that will be a safe bet with RAO in delhi, then recently I got my XAT score and I got 80.68 percentile and don't know which all colleges can I apply to, as my parents really want me to do M.B.A. Then, I got a job offer from one of the most reputed social organisations that is involved in educational sector. I just don't know what to do.

Sirji, you are using acronyms that my limited vocabulary fails to put in the right context. The only famous 'Rao' I know of, was the Prime Minister of India many years back.

Coming to your main dilemma, I'd like to know why you wanted to get into the Civil Services? For prestige, for doing something good for the society/country, for the power, for other reasons?

Second question: Why do your parents want you to chuck the Civil Services plan and the job and go for an MBA?

I can't provide any inputs on what MBA institutions you can target with your score, as that's not my area of expertise. So I'll move to the other 2 options.

Cracking the Civil Services process can be tougher than an MBA. So if you think you have the capability to do so, definitely try it.

However, if you aren't too sure about it, and pursuing this more for emotional and ego related reasons, then the social organisation would be a better option. It won't be the same as a Civil services role, but it could still give you opportunities to give back something to the society and build credibility for yourself (assuming that was your rationale for choosing civil svcs).

- SK

dilip817 Says

I work in "X" profile but want to make my career in Y(Investment Banking/Private Equity/VC)

It would've helped if you could have shared a little more about what 'X' means. Your 'Y' can actually be split up into, not one, but 3 different careers. Each will require a different strategy.

Started GMAT and Learning/Pursuing Y, but together both not going with a good pace. Not able to match GMAT schedule. Also need to meet high performance expectations in current profile.

I realise this can be tough to manage, specifically for folks who are work-schedules that are very demanding. But do find time to keep for it as the GMAT can play an important role, when you are aiming for quant focussed roles.

Learned from net that the best time for GMAT is May or June and apply in the 1st round.

It'll be good to get a score before May, so you'd have enough time to work on the remaining parts of the application.

So kind of stuck between whether
1) to wait till I migrate to "Y" and then go for GMAT or
2) move up the value chain in "X" profile and go for an MBA to get into "Y".

If you can manage option 1, that'll be the best. And then you'd probably not need an MBA.
Option 2 may not help much if your 'X' role isn't helping you develop skills that are relevant for any of the 3 'Y' options. Which is why I wanted to know what 'X' meant.

Greatly appreciate your valuable advice. As this will help me to form a strategy for my long term career plan.

After all the X and Y references, let me know if you still find the response helpful.

- If X=2 & Y=3 What is (X^Y)/(Y^X) -->

Sameer I am impressed by your answers and your outlook. I am an IT professional working with TCS. I have more than 3 years of workex.
I intend to do an MBA from ISB.

Is it the right time to apply or should i get more work ex.

My home loan is already on for a property that i purchased in Gurgaon. Should I consider for an expansive MBA internationally?

I personally feel that I should not wait and start my preperation. What is your take? Please suggest.

Hi Sameer ,

Most puys here seem to be from the IT field and wanting to do an MBA to change fields/increase in salary albeit in the corporate world.
However my goals are a bit different , first my profile is :
A Mechanical engineer working in the project management group for a prestigious Indian company in the defense and aerospace sector;
job utilizes core mechanical knowledge, communication skills and basic financial knowledge.
I have been working for 2 years now and have been thinking of an Mba in 2013;

My career goal is entrepreneurship ; my father has his own firm which is a manufacturing company in the technical textiles sector and I do wish to join him.
There is a lot of scope for expansion in this field which I believe is something that excites me ; however given that my financial knowledge and might not be upto the mark required for something like that I feel an Mba would help me bridge that gap.
The dilemma I face is :
Do I need an Mba? I mean is it really worth spending a year or two and money on a program ?

If yes,
which program to target and where ?
A One-year program would be preferable.
Any other suggestions or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thank You
Sumit

Hi Team,

I doesn't know what to do in life...Iam a 2009 BE passout,gave CAT 2010 but the result was not good so didn't opt for any colleges.Joined an IT company in the same year now it has been 2yrs for me in this company but i don't have job satisfaction as well as passion.
I attended classes for CAT 2011 but didn't gave the exam due to my carelessness.Now Iam in dilemma.I hate my job and want to do an MBA but Iam not focusing on my preparation.I wanted to pursue MBA program in NIT or any good recognized Institute but something is blocking me in achieving my desire.
Kindly advise me.

Thanks,
Balaji

Sir,
I'am caught in a dilemma and I don't know what to do. Please help me. The confusion is that 1st thng 1st I wana go 4 civil services any which way so i thought why not go for MA in eng lit. from DU
coz that will be a safe bet with RAO in delhi, then recently I got my XAT score and I got 80.68 percentile and don't know which all colleges can I apply to, as my parents really want me to do M.B.A. Then, I got a job offer from one of the most reputed social organisations that is involved in educational sector. I just don't know what to do.

intennsive Says

I returned to PG for guidance after a gap of two years and came across your thread. I've put everything in this post...

Completely unrelated point first. I had to read the post (all 779 words) twice for me to really understand what was happening.
This is an informal forum, so not a big issue. But in the corporate world, brevity is valued. So in future communications (specially written content), with folks who don't know you, resist the urge to just open up all the pent up emotions and the details. It may clutter the reader's thought process.

and I hope to get some guidance as to what is wrong with my career and how can I turn it into something I can appreciate.

Probably you've been listening to everyone else but yourself.

Is MBA really an option for me...How can I tackle the questions like What are your goals? (quite frankly I don't know).

I don't think any further education at this stage is advisable. If the problem is that you aren't sure about your goals, no degree will automatically add clarity to it. You'd just be repeating the M.Tech story all over again. Plus you say you already have an education loan that hasn't been paid.

Start filling up the hole, rather than digging more furiously to get out of it.

I do have some serious inclination towards business consulting but I am not 100% sure as I do not know what to expect here

Let's build up on this. What is it about consulting that you find attractive? What skills do you think you have that'll help you in a consulting job?

- SK

Hi Sameer,
My sad story:

Background

In the summer of 2005 I decided that I want to be a Mechanical Engineer and that I will put my everything to get a Mechanical Engineering seat in a decent college. I achieved this in September 2005. Just one day after my engineering counselling, i.e. after getting a ME seat in a good

college I fell in a ditch so deep that I am still unable to come out even today- My friends convinced me to drop Mechanical

Engineering and take up the flashy world of Computer Science and Information Technology. So, I dropped ME and took up IT in a

lesser known college (since my counselling was over). I lost Rs. 10,000 security deposit for ME seat and gave Rs. 20,000 more for a management seat in the new "college" for Information Technology.

I was happy in the first year as the subjects were same for all the streams. From second year on I realized that IT was never

my cup of tea and I struggled to cope with the pressure. I scrapped through four years with just 67%.
I had attempted CAT 2008 that year without any preparation because I just wanted to measure myself up with the best brains of

India. Little did I know that had I concentrated and gave CAT seriously I wouldn't have been added in the long list of

unemployed youth in 2009. Being good in Verbal I scored 91% but my quant and LR brought me down to 61% overall.
I attempted a few other National level tests and did in fact received some interview calls. But destiny had it and I flunked in all the interviews and by the time I completed B.Tech I knew I'll just be another addition to the unemployed pool.

Family and friends convinced me to take up some other course. A B.Tech. with no job, rejected from MBA interviews naturally

goes for M.Tech, so did I- M.Tech(IT), but luckily I landed in a prestigious institute (non IIT/NIT but better than a few

NITs). I got an internship in the final year of M.Tech. at a US IT services company (now number three in the Indian market and a recent addition to the Fortune 500 list).
I cleared the internship and post-graduated with CGPA 7.7/10 (low again because of obvious reasons)


The M.Tech. degree from a fine institute added to my misery. Now I was seen as a larger than life techie, brimming with

coding logic and programming ideas.
Since I had a job offer from my internship company I wasn't allowed to take up any more campus interviews in the college.
Finally, I joined the same company. My M.Tech tag and the internship was not considered by the company and was forced to work

at the junior most level along with B.Techs, MCAs, BCAs and MCAs at a super terrific CTC of Rs 3.0 lac. I was told that my

internship was done as a part of my college curriculum and thus it wont be taken into account for full time work (even

though the project I did had very high stakes within the organization). As for my masters degree- I was told how every

fresher is treated equally in the organization and how in order to progress I must show my worth (my ASS!). Salt was sprinkled slowly on my wounds when I saw that two of my school mates were my seniors in the same office location (since they joined in 2009 with just a B.Tech!). I felt like quitting the job and doing something else (?).
All these events added up to my hate for the IT industry.

I returned to PG for guidance after a gap of two years and came across your thread. I've put everything in this post and I

hope to get some guidance as to what is wrong with my career and how can I turn it into something I can appreciate.

Is MBA really an option for me, especially after one masters degree? How can I tackle the questions like-

Why another masters degree in such a short time?
What are your goals? (quite frankly I don't know).

I do have some serious inclination towards business consulting but I am not 100% sure as I do not know what to expect here

from head to toe.
How hard will it be for me to convince the interviewers?

Seriously I cannot continue working here at this pay. My educational loan is also there to be repaid. An MBA will stretch my family to the maximum as I cannot afford it on my own with my pay cheque.
Expecting some enlightment..pheww.

abhi76 Says

Hi Sameer, great thread....

Thank you Abhi.

I wanted to know something about the post MBA rotational programs that a lot of large firms offer...

Before moving on to the rest of your questions, for the uninitiated, here's a brief intro to MBA rotational programs.

Are these programs mostly limited to top B-Schools??

Not really. The recruitment process is open to anyone who meets their criteria. However, for time and resource reasons, they develop formal relationships only with a select few institutions. If you find a way to get their attention and if you are good, you will be considered for the same position.

Are they meant as grooming grounds for future leadership positions or are they just generic training programs??

In the short term, it's more of the latter i.e. get exposed to various functions before selecting one home for yourself.

The high-potential ones will get more visibility within the organisation as folks who've been handpicked from universities to fill in key positions in the organisation.

Not all rotational 'interns' will go on to take up leadership positions. So it's not a guarantee.

Second, I was curious about post Investment Banking and post Consulting opportunities. From what I hear, they have an "up or out" policy.....

Many of the top consulting firms have that policy, though it doesn't get openly talked about.

In I-banking, after a point in time, it's pretty much a move-out-voluntarily-or-get-kicked-out policy. So make your money quickly and time your exit ;-)

- Do rotational programs cause dizziness?

Hi Sameer, great thread....

I wanted to know something about the post MBA rotational programs that a lot of large firms offer...such as GE, Procter and Gamble (I don't think they have a formal rotational program...but people do seem to move around functional lines a lot), Aditya Birla Group, ITC etc. Are these programs mostly limited to top B-Schools?? Are they meant as grooming grounds for future leadership positions or are they just generic training programs??

Second, I was curious about post Investment Banking and post Consulting opportunities. From what I hear, they have an "up or out" policy.....

Thanks in advance....

the ace Says

I have a query. I am presently working with Oracle Financial Services SW LTD as a Staff Consultant for past 40 months. Though I am in the consulting division my roles and responsibilities are limited to the coding work and our banking product (FLEXCUBE) maintenance.

Animesh bhai, here's some trivia to demonstrate the 6 degrees of separation funda:
My first company (Citicorp)...spun off another company (iFlex)...which had created the product (Flexcube)...which attracted the interest of Oracle...which finally bought the whole company. Small world!

Within the FLEXCUBE suite, I have worked on the FLEXCUBE Investor Servicing which deals with mainly Mutual Funds.

What role would suit me after doing an MBA. Or atleast what role should I say to the interview panel that would seem like a logical extension to what I am doing currently ?

If I were to logical extend your experience, here are a few options:

- Within the IT industry: Senior roles in the software development arena, business analysis, project management, client engagement manager, business development

- Outside the IT industry: financial services industry, mutual funds, broader asset management roles, research analysis

- Option 3: Completely unrelated to any of these if you can show some overlap. This is something you'd know best, based on your interests and aptitude.

Now going back to the earlier point about what you should be saying to the interview panel that would convince them...I'd suggest not taking that approach of trying to guess what they want.

Convince yourself first that a role would be good for you. That way whether you are talking to the interview panel (for the MBA seat), your current boss at Oracle (say, for a job-rotation) or your future in-laws (for their precious daughter's delicate hand)...the answer would be consistent. Because YOU believe in it first and think it's logical and practical.

I am scored 100/175 in SNAP 2011 and expecting calls from SIBM-P and SCMHRD.

Saar, good to see that you have Indian schools on your list. But curious to know why the green grass abroad and the green green dollars are not attracting you yet?

- Any ideas to keep India clean and green?

Hi,

I have a query. I am presently working with Oracle Financial Services SW LTD as a Staff Consultant for past 40 months. Though I am in the consulting division my roles and responsibilities are limited to the coding work and our banking product (FLEXCUBE) maintenance.

Within the FLEXCUBE suite, I have worked on the FLEXCUBE Investor Servicing which deals with mainly Mutual Funds.

What role would suit me after doing an MBA. Or atleast what role should I say to the interview panel that would seem like a logical extension to what I am doing currently ?

I am scored 100/175 in SNAP 2011 and expecting calls from SIBM-P and SCMHRD.

Thanks and Regards
Animesh

Milestone Update: The first print run for 'Beyond The MBA Hype' has been sold out within 3 months of getting released. According to industry folks, 95% of the published books don't cross that milestone in their lifetime.

The second print run is in progress, so just a little more patience if you've been hunting for a copy.

For those who managed to get a copy, do share it with your not-so-fortunate friends who are targetting Round 2 deadlines and need some clarity on what to expect before they take the plunge.

Thanks a ton everyone, for giving the book and more importantly the message in it a BIG thumbs up.

- Yo boys, I'm reading book-u, nice book-u, out of stock book-u, wondering which-u?

scrapy007 Says

Hi Sameer...some 2 years back i had an id on PG when i'd battle all day preparing for CAT and had to get a new one couple days back

For PG forums, active members are always better than silent/dormant ones. So welcome back, scrapy-ji!

...when "the needle on my psych-o-meter crossed red mark" and even though I'm still not full of kolaveri di I had to listen to gaane mein daal

For those who are wondering what that means, just do a search for 'frustration release song' in Google and let off some steam.

I am not the happiest guy to be asking help on an interactive ,informative and a leading career forum but as much i resist saying what i want to say more i find it okay saying it.

as long as your identity is kept under wraps and you are getting some direction, it's all worth it my friend. Much better than keeping it all bottled up worrying about what people will think.

I am not happy as i see my career growth ...
:

Sorry to hear about the accident. But what you did after that to set the ball rolling again is commendable.

Quick question: Are you still at a physical disadvantage when it comes to job hunting? Or is all that behind you now?

Now that I've already wasted so much time it again becomes hard for me to begin things from the beginning
:
Thinking of reinventing the wheel makes me all the more sick that it further adds to my agonies also looking at my friends complete 2 years in office,followed by my juniors now

Let me share a different perspective to that. For folks who take the 'conventional' route, the standard options and approaches are laid out pretty well...complete a degree, take up a job, get frustrated, go for higher education, take up another job...build up lather, rinse and repeat.

Your story is not conventional. You were forced to take a detour due to developments that you didn't ask for. Now if you want to do what the other guys have been doing, you are setting the bar too high for yourself and competing with them on an unfair platform, where they've already had a head-start.

Do something that the others won't think about. There are tons of things you could do from home (as you are already comfortable with that model).

should i change the vertical altogether;
:

Hmmm, plenty of options listed in there. Hypothetical question: Forget what employers want. If you had complete freedom to choose, what work would you prefer to do? What field interests you the most?

- SK

Planning to get ur book this weekend.Preparing for my final yr exams.So,hopefully i will start working from jan2012.(Advance Happy New Year)

Thank you:)

catfighter Says

Yes I have heard that many ppl are involved from the time of the first draft until the final version of the book is published...

The story actually continues beyond the book publishing date. Like any other product-based business, the sales and distribution process go on for longer and involve more people.

Fascinating industry which has it's own idiosyncracies!

I really hope to publish my book one day..being an avid reader, it will be a dream come true to see my own book being published!

I manage a personal blog where I share tips and advice on how to get published. Check it out to start the learning right now. What are you planning to write - fiction/non-fiction?

PS: want to publish your own book? Ask SK ;). Like your witty signatures. keep them coming :)

I thought nobody reads those signatures. So I've been creating them for my own entertainment. The little dessert after a heavy meal

- Do authors like flattery?

This is Aashish, age 21, just completed my graduation this year. Currently in CA-Final, also a CISA.
I want to pursue MBA from an Internation School in the USA or the UK; immediately after passing CA.
:
can you suggest any alternative?

Aashish,

I see that you've posted this on Ask A Consultant thread.

I also see that our friend baccardisprite has given you excellent advice on the same query that you posted on this --> thread.

As the PG rules mention, cross-posting isn't a good idea. Most experts responding on these threads will reach your post, but it will take time as most are also busy with their regular workloads and schedules. So a little patience is always nice :-)

If you have other questions that haven't been addressed on the other threads, I'd be happy to address them.

- SK

Hi Sameer...some 2 years back i had an id on PG when i'd battle all day preparing for CAT and had to get a new one couple days back when "the needle on my psych-o-meter crossed red mark" and even though I'm still not full of kolaveri di I had to listen to gaane mein daal

I am not the happiest guy to be asking help on an interactive ,informative and a leading career forum but as much i resist saying what i want to say more i find it okay saying it.

I am not happy as i see my career growth ...i passed out from one of the country's finest engineering colleges in 2009 and was selected for TCS and NIC..right before i could actually join the training programme for NIC that i had chosen to go for i met with an accident and was bed ridden for almost a year...with that it became quite obvious that i wouldn't be able to work as they declined to finally hire me...which was not at all okay.I somehow gathered all the courage and went for interviews and started preparing for MBA entrances(wrote mock tests for CAT/GMAT and scored well) that i had planned earlier after a 2 yr work experience...finding a job with almost dysfunctional body wasn't at all easy...it took its toll and i had to resort to a favorable means of earning bread-working as an insurance executive for a U.K based company(work from home) all this while i tried to get my attention towards my MBA studies and other tech topics but miserably failed to do so.

Now that I've already wasted so much time it again becomes hard for me to begin things from the beginning...also i have a feeling that my brain would be an epic failure if i would want to get creative with things,may be because I'm lagging on so much that things would pose so many uncertainties(lost touch with subject matter).Thinking of reinventing the wheel makes me all the more sick that it further adds to my agonies also looking at my friends complete 2 years in office,followed by my juniors now

I do not know whether i should be going forward with what little i know,from my college days or my MBA classes.Or should i change the vertical altogether;should i be going for some specialized software course or a management course or prepare for MBA/GMAT which always had been my dream or may be start a consultancy with a friend or open a dairy farm or may be nothing at all...I still go to a physiotherapist and feel like assisting him on his work(we're almost like thick pals now)..he'd say I am capable of so much more and there is more to life than just thinking about what is not in control.
I don't want to disappoint myself by explaining why am I posting all this HERE neither am I acting pricy and I admit being almost guilty for writing so much awful load of "off topic" matter here.

If at all you have suggestions..I'll be damned

sumyrules Says

Sameer jee, Namaste !! :)

Seeing the number of JEE references in your note, I thought it would be about getting into IIT, but I guess I was wrong.

I would request you to please go through my post on PG some 5 months back...

I have viewed and analysed the 5-month old post and come to the conclusion that you are the most adept puy when it comes to the creative and comprehensive usage of PG smilies.

I had also posted another post on PG on the pros and cons of doing MBA in India & Abroad...

13 smilies in that one as opposed to 11 in the first one. Continuous progress is the name of the game, my friend.

But beyond the visual delights of your 2 posts, I see that your main dilemma has been between MS programs and 2-year Indian MBA programs. It's a justified (and pretty common) dilemma to have when folks have very little experience and are driven pretty much by peer pressure and impatience...rather than introspection and personalised goals.

When it comes to international MBA programs (the focus of this thread), the earlier dilemma is mostly non-existent, as folks would've outgrown the 2-year MBA stage and an MS isn't usually preferred, as that'll only drive them further into the technicalities that they are trying to get away from. So I see a disconnect between the earlier posts and what we are discussing here. But let's proceed.

Please advise me Sameer jee..

'Jee, Salman-jee,' said Veena Malik to Sallu bhai on last year's Bigg Boss. And it took her a whole year and a completely different 3-letter acronym (on her arm) to become famous (?).

I want to undergo a full Time Management program only (2 Years) and in India, it is difficult and unsuitable for people with 4+ yrs of exp. I also have a financial constraint about doing MBA abroad.

With 4+ years work-ex under your belt, why do you want to restrict yourself to the (primarily) fresher-level opportunities that come to 2-yr MBA campuses?

You don't have to completely strike off international MBA programs. There are several good programs that offer financial assistance in the form of scholarships, loans, part-time working opportunities etc to help out deserving students. You'll have to start researching those schools and match them with your career objectives.

I cannot spend 50 lakhs for a Mgmt course in UK for 2 years and return to India. and start working here !! No matter whatever my package would be...I would need a lot of money to overcome my Edu. Loan in India.:-(

Most UK programs are generally for 1 year. Schools like LBS and Manchester have longer programs.

Alternatively you could look at other 1-year programs in India like ISB, XLRI GMP, Great Lakes etc if you want to stick to India. These would still be better than going back a few years and starting the journey from scratch.

So, whats your take on this scenario, Sameer jee ?
:

In summary, if you think you can do well in the Indian entrance exams give it a try. If not work for a few years and try for the GMAT route and include the ideas mentioned above in your strategy.

Parantu, in the excitement to get one of those nice degrees, one key point that you've missed out in all 3 posts or maybe I missed it out. Why do you want an MBA?

Trending on twitter right now: #parleG, #scam2G and...#sameerjee

skctee Says

yes sirjee,these are my queries in asaan bhasha..regarding 1st question i want to know it out of curiosity although i would like to stay in my pre mba field post mba . For the 2nd question i would like to know abt transition wrt to domain ,industry remaining same,3rd question you have hit it bang on sirjee

Great. Back on the same page then. Let's continue with the vartalap.

- Do GMAT based Indian MBA programs facilitate complete (i.e industry + role) career changes?

In theory, they all do. Surprisingly, it is a little easier to manage the transition outside India despite the dependency on work permit, visa etc.

Why? The concept of 'lateral hires' is more accepted in traditional MBA markets (like the US). ISB played a big role in popularising the concept of lateral placements in India.

But many Indian companies are still trying to come to grips with the concept. They'd rather have freshers who can be moulded into their corporate culture. That's a process that has been tested over time with our traditional 2-yr programs. It'll be a slow change of mindset for more industries to open their arms (SRK style) for career changers.

- How much does previous experience help in the transition (your 'leverage' wali query)?

Helps a LOT. In contrast to the admission committees who primarily granted you the MBA seat based on your potential, a recruiter will view you differently. Your proven practical skills carry more weight than pure potential.

- With 7 yrs exp, are you looking considering 2 year programs too?

If it's purely knowledge you were looking at, I'd have said go ahead. But an MBA is more than that. It's an experience and you won't get the whole benefit if you don't fit into the program.

Also, building on the confused corporate India wala point, if they are not sure what to do with experienced guys from GMAT-based programs, they'd be more confused with an experienced guy graduating with guys who've not been exposed to half of what you've gone through.

If I were you, I'd stay away from these. Don't make it more difficult for India Inc to accept you back from a 2-yr program. It's all about the Fit, buddy.

Which is why Akshay Kumar (in the Dollar Club Ad) also asks the symbolical question...
'Fit' hai boss?

Not always the case, specially in India. Depends on the industry and the company culture. I spent the last 5 years in a company where MBA's were rare even at the top mgmt levels.

The MBA culture is more dominant in the US and even there, folks are debating this. Go to Google, type 'how many ceos have mbas' and check out the first Businessweek article (ironically) titled 'Is The MBA Overrated?'. This one is pretty old. Maybe there are more recent surveys that'll paint a more accurate picture.

For your other questions, there is the risk of our discussion going tangential as we are trying to generalise and look at hypothetical situations.

So let's get on the same page first

Let me know if the following is an accurate interpretation of your queries.

- Do GMAT based Indian MBA programs facilitate complete (i.e industry + role) career changes?

- How much does previous experience help in the transition (your 'leverage' wali query)?

- With 7 yrs exp, are you looking considering 2 year programs too?

If it is not as straightforward as I've listed here, we'll sort it out interactively (maybe over the phone) to prevent other readers from scratching their heads.

- Want to know why phones will never go out of fashion?

yes sirjee,these are my queries in asaan bhasha..regarding 1st question i want to know it out of curiosity although i would like to stay in my pre mba field post mba . For the 2nd question i would like to know abt transition wrt to domain ,industry remaining same,3rd question you have hit it bang on sirjee

skctee Says

..work ex is definitely the most important factor but degree factor cannot be ignored also.

Not always the case, specially in India. Depends on the industry and the company culture. I spent the last 5 years in a company where MBA's were rare even at the top mgmt levels.

The MBA culture is more dominant in the US and even there, folks are debating this. Go to Google, type 'how many ceos have mbas' and check out the first Businessweek article (ironically) titled 'Is The MBA Overrated?'. This one is pretty old. Maybe there are more recent surveys that'll paint a more accurate picture.

...i mean say a guy with 7 years w.ex didn't find admission in 1 year programme but...

For your other questions, there is the risk of our discussion going tangential as we are trying to generalise and look at hypothetical situations.

So let's get on the same page first

Let me know if the following is an accurate interpretation of your queries.

- Do GMAT based Indian MBA programs facilitate complete (i.e industry + role) career changes?

- How much does previous experience help in the transition (your 'leverage' wali query)?

- With 7 yrs exp, are you looking considering 2 year programs too?

If it is not as straightforward as I've listed here, we'll sort it out interactively (maybe over the phone) to prevent other readers from scratching their heads.

- Want to know why phones will never go out of fashion?

Hi There.
This is Aashish, age 21, just completed my graduation this year.
Currently in CA-Final, also a CISA.
I want to pursue MBA from an Internation School in the USA or the UK; immediately after passing CA.
I have no full time work-ex .
Can you help me with the requirements in context of a safe GMAT score.
Plus people are telling me that work-ex is a must to get into International B-Schools, is it true?
If yes, are there any good schools which entertain freshers like me?
I am interested in either MBA in SM, Finance or HR.

Or

can you suggest any alternative?
My Academics:
Xth - 85%
XIIth - 78%
B.Com - 75%
CISA - 73% .

RSVP.

TIA.
A.D.T.

Can u help me on this?

sulzirsha Says

From his point of view,western management,other religion,countries are jt a bull****(actually tells it minimum 10tms a day).

If that's his attitude, then I'm on your side Sulthana when you say he was wrong.

Most of the time,reasonable amt of money comes along wid the designation.correct me if i'm wrong.

I'd make a small correction to that statement and replace 'designation' with 'right set of skills and experience'.

Sorry i don't understand hindi :-(.

I was just saying your compliments are making me blush. In the rush to get problems solved or even discussed, most folks forget thanking the guy who's trying to help. So little gestures like that are always welcome.

it seemd to be a typical bpo job.calling candidates and sending them to the interview,everythng is via the phone(headset) and updating database.

After leaving my corporate job, that's pretty much what I do nowadays :). I spend all my time on either the phone or the computer.

Could you advise me,what exactly i should be looking for?

Three points:

Point 1 - Never ask anyone on a public forum what you should 'exactly' be doing. There's no way the reader will be able to know all the details required to make an accurate recommendation.

Point 2 - When you are targetting a change of industry, in most cases, you will have to start at the bottom of the ladder. In your case, as you listed HR as an interest area, apply to companies that are willing to hire freshers (e.g. in recruitment). With experience you can try for a change of role, designation or company.

I wouldn't recommend that you invest more in theoretical education at this stage. Use the resources and get some hands-on experience.

Point 3 - Read Point 1 again

This is a single line question for which i need an answer to make ma heart feel lite.

Have you tried switching to Olive Oil? They claim that it makes the heart light and young.

can i get ur book at landmark?i live in chennai.

What! You haven't read the book yet!
Sure, you can get it at Landmark and all the other regular stores. But you'll have to hunt for it behind the huge piles of Chethan Bhagat novels that are dominating modest works of insignificant authors like me.

Or if you don't like playing hide and seek in bookstores, you could go to Flipkart.

- Close your eyes, count to 10 and then -->

Hi Sameer,

I too belong to the Indian-IT-Male category and my story is no different to most GMAT applicants.

Yeh paaglaDaashu ka matlab kya hai, veerji?

My choice of institutes are primarily based on Max Education Loan = Rs 20 L;

I'm guessing you'd be pumping in some maal from your pocket as well? Otherwise the Indian programs would also be out of range.
depending on how much that out-of-pocket amount will be, all schools can on your list can be affordable.

Tangential thought: I miss the days of gurukuls. Free education, lots of shade (under the banyan tree where classes were held) and none of the shady stuff that generally pervades the modern education industry.

preferable placement in India/Singapore/HongKong but not extended foreign stay;

Not sure what you mean by 'extended foreign stay'. If you are in Singapore or HK, you would have an extended foreign stay, right? Or did you mean that you want to come back to India as some point in time?

Regionally best ranked school with international exposure.

IIMA and ISB may not fit into your criteria then.

Specially since my experience is at lower side for IIM-A PGPEX, do you think I stand a chance?

Apart from the fact that you have 6 yrs of work-ex, I don't know anything about you. So tough to comment on chances, buddy.

For achieving this goal what range of GMAT score and profiling I need to focus?

In general, for a general question like that, my general answer is to stay close to or above the median for the schools that you plan to apply to.

But don't be too caught up with GMAT prep. For Indians it is no longer a differentiator. Focus on the bigger storyline as that's what will help you get in.

- Shishya Hot or Guru Cool?

Sameer jee,
Namaste !! :)

I would request you to please go through my post on PG some 5 months back...

Link:-http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/career-discussions/49509-frustrated-i-need-some-inspiration-81.html#post2791365

Updates/Changes from my earlier post
- Preparations are on from past 3 months...Joined some coaching institute n doing pretty Decent.
- Finished CAT, which was again pretty decent.. expecting no calls from any top 30 institutes.
- Trying hard for SNAP now, targetting SIBM-P /SCMHRD
- Also, XAT is my only hope...Targetting GIM, SPJain & TAPMI (thru XAT scores)

I had also posted another post on PG on the pros and cons of doing MBA in India & Abroad...

Link:- http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/career-discussions/9670-personal-career-cat-job-dilemma-452.html#post2855931

Please advise me Sameer jee..
Also, If I dint get thru the college of my liking this year and the next year, i.e 2013 .. I have to try and look out for MBA Opportunities
abroad..because, I want to undergo a full Time Management program only (2 Years) and in India, it is difficult and unsuitable for people with 4+ yrs of exp. doing MBA in Non-IIM's but top 30 colleges in India.
I also have a financial constraint about doing MBA abroad.
So, a bit skeptical about this.
I cannot spend 50 lakhs for a Mgmt course in UK for 2 years and return to India. and start working here !! No matter whatever my package would be...I would need a lot of money to overcome my Edu. Loan in India.:-(

So, whats your take on this scenario, Sameer jee ?
- Concentrate on MBA in India..
* SNAP 2011, XAT 2012 for 2012-14 batch
* CAT '12, SNAP '12, XAT '13 for 2013-15 batch ( I would have 32 months of IT Exp.)
and, if not able to get a decent Convert..
Switching onto GMAT, but by 2014, I should have to get in a decent college. But, as I mentioned..Money is a constraint here...:-(

Thanks !

waiting for your Response ! Sirjee

Will pass on your thoughts to the editor, sirji. Thanks.

Editors work equally hard on polishing the draft and converting it into a product worthy of being released into the market with the Publishers name.

Authors end up getting the bouquets (and often the brickbats) and the guys working behind the scenes often go unnoticed.

Yes I have heard that many ppl are involved from the time of the first draft until the final version of the book is published..an imp. reason to fight piracy to ensure that all the guys get their due (had read an article abt. this somewhere, don't remember where...)

Publishing is an interesting business. Read up about it when you have the time and when you need a break from MBA apps. Who knows when you'll be planning to get your first book published :).

I really hope to publish my book one day..being an avid reader, it will be a dream come true to see my own book being published!

PS: want to publish your own book? Ask SK ;). Like your witty signatures. keep them coming

catfighter Says

...And I think both you and the publishers have done a good job!

Will pass on your thoughts to the editor, sirji. Thanks.

Editors work equally hard on polishing the draft and converting it into a product worthy of being released into the market with the Publishers name.

Authors end up getting the bouquets (and often the brickbats) and the guys working behind the scenes often go unnoticed.

Publishing is an interesting business. Read up about it when you have the time and when you need a break from MBA apps. Who knows when you'll be planning to get your first book published :).

- SK

Hi There.
This is Aashish, age 21, just completed my graduation this year.
Currently in CA-Final, also a CISA.
I want to pursue MBA from an Internation School in the USA or the UK; immediately after passing CA.
I have no full time work-ex .
Can you help me with the requirements in context of a safe GMAT score.
Plus people are telling me that work-ex is a must to get into International B-Schools, is it true?
If yes, are there any good schools which entertain freshers like me?
I am interested in either MBA in SM, Finance or HR.

Or

can you suggest any alternative?
My Academics:
Xth - 85%
XIIth - 78%
B.Com - 75%
CISA - 73% .

RSVP.

TIA.
A.D.T.

Hello Sameer,

I just want your thoughts about Copenhagen Business Schools, a SWOT analysis perhaps ?

Ayon-da, Apart from the general info that's available on the net, I'm pretty ignorant about this school. It doesn't figure in the Mock Application Process that we do and none of the guys we've worked with have had it on their shortlist.

But don't let my ignorance influence your views about the school.

What you are doing (checking with current students/alumni) is the right approach. But keep in mind that their info will also be biased to an extent based on their expectations from the program. So don't take one student's perspective.

Is there any common fact that has consistently comes across from the discussions?

(I couldn't get educational loan this year, as our property is not "freehold" so unfortunately, I will have to let go of Schulich India :(

Can you get a deferral?

- SK

Sameer jee,
Namaste !! :)

I would request you to please go through my post on PG some 5 months back...

Link:-http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/career-discussions/49509-frustrated-i-need-some-inspiration-81.html#post2791365

Updates/Changes from my earlier post
- Preparations are on from past 3 months...Joined some coaching institute n doing pretty Decent.
- Finished CAT, which was again pretty decent.. expecting no calls from any top 30 institutes.
- Trying hard for SNAP now, targetting SIBM-P /SCMHRD
- Also, XAT is my only hope...Targetting GIM, SPJain & TAPMI (thru XAT scores)

I had also posted another post on PG on the pros and cons of doing MBA in India & Abroad...

Link:- http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/career-discussions/9670-personal-career-cat-job-dilemma-452.html#post2855931

Please advise me Sameer jee..
Also, If I dint get thru the college of my liking this year and the next year, i.e 2013 .. I have to try and look out for MBA Opportunities
abroad..because, I want to undergo a full Time Management program only (2 Years) and in India, it is difficult and unsuitable for people with 4+ yrs of exp. doing MBA in Non-IIM's but top 30 colleges in India.
I also have a financial constraint about doing MBA abroad.
So, a bit skeptical about this.
I cannot spend 50 lakhs for a Mgmt course in UK for 2 years and return to India. and start working here !! No matter whatever my package would be...I would need a lot of money to overcome my Edu. Loan in India.:-(

So, whats your take on this scenario, Sameer jee ?
- Concentrate on MBA in India..
* SNAP 2011, XAT 2012 for 2012-14 batch
* CAT '12, SNAP '12, XAT '13 for 2013-15 batch ( I would have 32 months of IT Exp.)
and, if not able to get a decent Convert..
Switching onto GMAT, but by 2014, I should have to get in a decent college. But, as I mentioned..Money is a constraint here...:-(

Thanks !

I dont get IT Says

Since the discussion is on the difference between perception and reality, I am someone who has had my share of disappointments.

Before you plunge into the story, let me thank you for creating an account on PG just for this thread.

I work for an IT company now and my work now has nothing to do with what I learnt during 4 years of specialized education(or even the 3 months that the company spent on my training).

Hmmm...I hear you, buddy. There's generally a big disconnect among many of our professional courses and what actually happens in the industry.

The top MBA programs try to update their curriculum to reflect the needs of the industry. But there are still limitations, as it is essentially a broad-based education they can provide to cater to folks with diverse interests. So it can never be as focussed and personalised as you want it to be.

The people who grow our food barely make Rs.20000 a year. I cannot believe someone is willing to pay me 20 times that amount for preparing Excel sheets:shocked:

Though it's not an exact comparison, you'd find similarities between the corporate world and the agri sector. A few savvy ones make a lot of money and buy imported cars and huge properties, whereas a huge majority get taken for a ride. Pretty much the same in the corporate world. But we are digressing. So back to the main topic.

So here's the question. If I pursue MBA, will i LEARN anything in those 2 years that I could actually put to use after I complete it?

Yes, you will learn. But more than becoming an expert at each discipline, you will get an initial exposure. Several of those skills, specially the quantative ones, will have practical value as well. But is there a guarantee that you'll use any? No one can tell, as it would depend on the career you choose.

Or should I do it because a guy with MBA is paid more to prepare excel sheets than a guy with B.E?

You have a choice not to send a job application for such roles. Many want money and are more than happy to create excel models.

I personally know brilliant guys who've chosen high-paying excel modelling jobs at Investment Banks where they will not use anything they learnt in the class. I also know guys who used the MBA and their natural flair for connecting with people to do wonders for their career.

My boss once told me if I stick around long enough in the IT industry i could become a Business Analyst. He also suggested some exam that i could take(I forgot the name).

Sure, there are tons of certifications that you'll have access to. PMP is quite popular for those who want to grow as Project Managers. But ask yourself what you want to do in the long run.

Btw, as there were frequent Excel references, you might want to check out the magical empire called Chandoo.org that former PG member managed to create based on this one tool. Here's the PG interview. In a recent article on a different blog, Chandoo also explains how he earned $100,000 in a month. Brilliant!

- Got an entreprising idea?

Good point, skctee. I'm convinced now that you have read the book to come up with questions like this :-)

The CEO perspective
You are right in saying that a CEO needs to have a generalist view about his business. Many get to that position from within the organisation after getting exposed to various functions. Others get hired from the market.

Very few are hired as CEOs directly from bschools. There are exceptions though. So an MBA is a great way to get a theoretical perspective on mutliple disciplines in a short span of time. But a classroom cannot provide practical expertise that comes with real world experience.

MBA vs Specialised Courses
Specialised courses are meant to fill in specific gaps in a manager's skills. So they can't be directly compared to an MBA. But you have greater flexibility with specialised courses.

The MBA is a buffet, while specialised courses take an la carte approach.

With one you get everything whether you want it or not. With the other you pick only what you want.

Yes, an MBA can be a great way to achieve a career change. In many top schools roughly half the class aims for some form of a transition - across industries, roles and geographies.

Usually this is a one time transition, immediately after graduation. Beyond that the track you choose will pretty much continue the way it did before the MBA. Though you are qualified in the other areas, your employer wouldn't want to encourage too many transition after that as it means losing out on whatever they've invested in you, in building your post-MBA skills.

Extremely important to do exactly that i.e. choose a school that 'Fits'. Unfortunately, most people continue to give too much importance to rankings. That's not true. I managed a career change with a 1 year MBA and I know many more who did. And I also know many who could not manage a career change from a 2-yr program. The difference between the two goes beyond careers. The speed, the flexibility, the cost, the batch mix...in fact the overall experience.
Where do you want to work post MBA? US, Europe, Asia? Makes the choice easier as each region has its conventional formats.
Not sure what you mean by 'leverage'. You mean from a class learning angle? Can you please explain?

- SK

1.Sir i'm not saying that one has to be hired from college as CEO.what i'm trying to say is that dont you think that in India still a degree matters a lot for getting shortlisted for certain positions..work ex is definitely the most important factor but degree factor cannot be ignored also.like for example a car mechanic knows a lot more than automobile engineer ,but when it'll come to the CEO position then it's the engineer who'll get the preference and no one will bother about the mechanic.so from that perspective isn't getting that paper degree matters...
2.
You said you managed a career change with 1 year mba,but sirjee you did an European MBA, and i'm trying to say about Indian MBA i.e do an Indian MBA offer that kind of flexibility (ISB an exception and also not comparable to PGPEX of IIM's as both offer something different),..do pgpex from IIM's offer a candidate the flexibility of a 360 degree career shift.because most of the time i saw that in PGPEX programmes it's the IT guys who are the major applicants and post MBA also they return to IT with a role change probably but not an Industry change.

3.
Asia or to be more specific India.by leverage i meant both learning and placement..i mean say a guy with 7 years w.ex didn't find admission in 1 year programme but managed to secure an admission in a 2 year programme and goes for it.He does not want a career change but a career progression..then will a 2 year MBA do a proper justice to his pre MBA w.ex ,because what i've read or learnt through various discussions is that the main aim of 2 year programmes are giving a strong foothold in slightly higher than entry level position in an industry of your choice whereas 1 year MBA is for senior level position in the industry you are already in .so will the B-school be able to do justice to his good number of w.ex years if he does not want a career change and a quantm leap in his career ..i mean it might be possible top 3 schools like A,B,C (i'm not sure though),but what about if it's in a college like XLRI, JBIMS,SP Jain,FMS (in no order)..

skctee Says

1...how do thease certifications or programmes help a candidate in terms of flexibility that an MBA degree offers...a ceo is someone who is responsible for running the company and should have a generalist idea of everything rather than having a specialised idea in a particular field which is the aim of most of the certification programmes.

Good point, skctee. I'm convinced now that you have read the book to come up with questions like this :-)

The CEO perspective
You are right in saying that a CEO needs to have a generalist view about his business. Many get to that position from within the organisation after getting exposed to various functions. Others get hired from the market.

Very few are hired as CEOs directly from bschools. There are exceptions though. So an MBA is a great way to get a theoretical perspective on mutliple disciplines in a short span of time. But a classroom cannot provide practical expertise that comes with real world experience.

MBA vs Specialised Courses
Specialised courses are meant to fill in specific gaps in a manager's skills. So they can't be directly compared to an MBA. But you have greater flexibility with specialised courses.

The MBA is a buffet, while specialised courses take an la carte approach.

With one you get everything whether you want it or not. With the other you pick only what you want.

also an with an mba a person can have the flexibility to move from various roles to roles in different orgnzn..so is not an MBA deree helpful from that perspective.

Yes, an MBA can be a great way to achieve a career change. In many top schools roughly half the class aims for some form of a transition - across industries, roles and geographies.

Usually this is a one time transition, immediately after graduation. Beyond that the track you choose will pretty much continue the way it did before the MBA. Though you are qualified in the other areas, your employer wouldn't want to encourage too many transition after that as it means losing out on whatever they've invested in you, in building your post-MBA skills.

2.How rewarding can it be if a person opts for a b-school that is reputed in his fied of interest other than blindly going for any institute of high repute.

Extremely important to do exactly that i.e. choose a school that 'Fits'. Unfortunately, most people continue to give too much importance to rankings.

also whats the difference between a 2 year mba and a 1year mba other than the fact that 2 year mba allows a career switch which is otherwise not possible with 1 year mba.

That's not true. I managed a career change with a 1 year MBA and I know many more who did. And I also know many who could not manage a career change from a 2-yr program. The difference between the two goes beyond careers. The speed, the flexibility, the cost, the batch mix...in fact the overall experience.

is it beneficial to go for 2 year mba with 5-6 year of w.ex even if there's no inclination towards changing field and would only like to change the domain..or for that purpose is 1 year mba helpful.

Where do you want to work post MBA? US, Europe, Asia? Makes the choice easier as each region has its conventional formats.

3.can every bschool leverage the more or less high w.ex of candidate in their 2 year programme or for that purpose is a 1 year mba helpful...

Not sure what you mean by 'leverage'. You mean from a class learning angle? Can you please explain?

- SK

skctee Says

Just finished reading your book "Beyond the MBA hype"..it's a very good book and was highly informative

Coming from someone who's got 4,294,967,295 thanks on PG (counter problem not fixed yet?), this is indeed a compliment.

...specially about the skills that one needs to survive and be successful in the businessworld,..

Most of that awareness comes intuitively after years of experience. So I was hoping that if the reader is aware of it early on in the career, it'll help to stay focussed rather than chase superficial, feel-good things like designation.

how to make successful career transition even without the coveted MBA degree ,proper introspection as to whether one needs an MBA or not

Those two might be the paisa vasool chapters for many folks.

..and the main USP of the book...set of questions/doubts that a candidate is likely to encounter...If one successfully gets answer to all the questions in the query list before he/she starts the MBA journey i guess that person is already halfway through to his desired goal whichever it might be.

Yup, stop worrying about what questions to ask and focus on getting the answers. Great way to cut the learning curve!

Thanks for summarising the useful aspects so succintly, buddy.

- Think compliments are getting rare?

I'm sure the manager was as confident as you are about his decisions when he took them.

In hindsight, we can all look back and say 'See? I told you so. You should have listened to me.'

Yes.I do agree .But if we try to give out our suggestions,he simply calls it as a bull****.From his point of view,western management,other religion,countries are jt a bull****(actually tells it minimum 10tms a day).I believe that there is no harm in lending his ears to his employees for the mutual benefit.Sorry,i'm gng off topic though.

Is that the order? If given the option, I'd have re-ordered it slightly. But different fol ks have different priorities :-)

:) Nah..i didn't meant to say,it's written in an order.If i put it in order,then i would be 1.job satisfaction,2.designation.Most of the time,reasonable amt of money comes along wid the designation.correct me if i'm wrong.

Aap toh hamein sharminda kar rahi ho. But I hope you are finding the interaction useful.

ll
Sorry i don't understand hindi :-(.

I got couple of recruitment jobs,bt din go 4 it.because it seemd to be a typical bpo job.calling candidates and sending them to the interview,everythng is via the phone(headset :-() and updating database.

Could you advise me,what exactly i should be looking for?
This is a single line question for which i need an answer to make ma heart feel lite.I could get only kpo jobs.hardware jobs r nt available (reason-female candidate).
(jt a reminder: i'm gonna complete UG degree ,only by nxt yr may).

can i get ur book at landmark?i live in chennai.

I'm currently earning around 45-50k per month.
Also,since its a govt company, work related stress is negligible & I have weekends off ;

I'm tempted to apply to your company now. Good pay, no stress, fantastic work-life balance, free weekends. You are living a European lifestyle in India, sirji.

Most good b-schools students are placed at an average in-hand salary of 65-70k pm.( mere observation , pls correct me if i'm wrong ).
Probably ,only the top 5 b-schools in india offer more.

If you are talking about 2-yr Indian programs, then yes many of them will not give you post-MBA salaries that'll go through the roof. If you get into the top industries - consulting, banking - then the story would be different. But again it would be difficult to crack into these roles unless you graduate from a top bschool.

These are the options available for me :
:

If you are absolutely sure about moving out of the current role right now, do try for the CAT. If you get good options on the basis of CAT, go for it.

An Executive MBA (option 2 in your list) is meant for a completely different audience with different objectives. So I'd keep that out of the discussion for now.

You can look at GMAT-based options (points 3 & 4 in your list) after you have around 3 yrs work-experience. Financing doesn't need to come entirely from your pocket or only from bank loans. You can aim for schools where you get a substantial amount of scholarships. Not everyone needs a Top-5 MBA to meet their career goals.

Work-experience is appreciated but not always mandatory. Schools realise that not every industry provides opportunities for their employees to go abroad.

Right, now that we've addressed the open queries you had, here's an additional perspective. If you look at your current situation as a dead-end (which I don't think it is), then an MBA seems like the best way out. However, most strong applicants who come to us are those who've done unconventional work in under-represented industries. And you are exactly in that position.

Despite the stake sale initiatives at many sarkari companies, our Govt still has it's fingers in many delicious pies where there's ample work to be done. I don't know how much flexibility and encouragement is there in your company to do so, but if you could take on additional responsibilities and make an impact in your current role, you will appear far more attractive to international bschools in 3-4 yrs time.

Trying to change the company culture is a BIG challenge. So even if you can show some leadership (not in designation, but in thought and execution) in the next few years, you'd stand head and shoulders above your competition.

If you are patient, money will follow.

Do you think that option is worth pursuing?

- SK

Dido Says

You know I have been thinking of posting my queries here, but Sameer kinda scares me (I have spoken to him before)! Man! He is like d big daddy who has an eye on you like! You better do this in time!!! (grr..)

Ouch! Dido-ji, after you confirmed on the recent call that we've never spoken before, I'm still wondering what it was that you are referring to.

If it's because of the vampire-like canine teeth that jut out of my jaw, let me assure you, they are usually non-functional (except on full-moon nights).

I was wondering if I should mail him separately or use this forum. I will be mailing Sameer anyway.

And now that we have actually interacted on the phone, I'm keen to see if I stay at the Big Daddy position for a while more or does my post-appraisal status change to something better...Big Dadaji, perhaps?

In the interim, for the people on this thread is there anyone who is applying to INSEAD and does not have an international work-ex or an int stint at all?

Will leave this one open for others to answer.

- Boo!

Hi Sameer,

I too belong to the Indian-IT-Male category and my story is no different to most GMAT applicants.

Target Year: 2013-2014 batch
Target Institutes: IIM-A (PGPEX), ISB, NUS, NTU
Education: BTech (NIT Dgp-CS)
Work Ex: 5 years 10 months by 2013 March. So far 4.5 years exp in reputed s/w product MNC as Senior Engineer, recently joined a mid-size start-up in Team-Lead role.
Acads: 92% in std 10, 93% in std 12, CGPA 9.14/10 in graduation
GMAT: Planning to take in March 2012
Extracurrics: decent

My choice of institutes are primarily based on Max Education Loan = Rs 20 L; preferable placement in India/Singapore/HongKong but not extended foreign stay;Regionally best ranked school with international exposure. For achieving this goal what range of GMAT score and profiling I need to focus? Specially since my experience is at lower side for IIM-A PGPEX, do you think I stand a chance?

Yep, I can relate to that..trimming the drafts to fit the word limits, keeping the end customer in mind :).
And I think both you and the publishers have done a good job!

Trivia: The book in its original avatar would've been 30% fatter. But a lot of content got chopped out during the editing phase. The publisher felt it would flow better this way.

Pretty much what we do in the essay editing phase at MBA Crystal Ball. With no (bschool essay style) word-limits to hold me back while writing the book, I guess I got carried away with the initial draft. So I was at the receiving end this time But I guess the publishers look at it from different perspectives and with their experience, I think they've done a good in trimming away the fat.

- Fighting flab?

Hi Sameer,
I have read your book, and must commend you for a nice compilation of the ground realities regarding the MBA...setting the right expectations is absolutely vital to avoid future disappointments.

Thanks catfighter. Your statement sums up the essence of the book very nicely.

Would have liked to have a chapter on "selecting the right b-school", but the probably that is what we have MBA-CB and this thread for..keep the gyan flowing :)

Will keep that in mind if/when the new edition for the book comes out. Thanks for the feedback.

Trivia: The book in its original avatar would've been 30% fatter. But a lot of content got chopped out during the editing phase. The publisher felt it would flow better this way.

Pretty much what we do in the essay editing phase at MBA Crystal Ball. With no (bschool essay style) word-limits to hold me back while writing the book, I guess I got carried away with the initial draft. So I was at the receiving end this time But I guess the publishers look at it from different perspectives and with their experience, I think they've done a good in trimming away the fat.

- Fighting flab?

murty001 Says

Hi Sameer, Interesting thread .

Murty bhai, an honour to have a PG veteran (since 2003!) on this thread. Aap ke shaan mein ek sher arz karta hoon (apologies in advance to those who don't understand Hindi or appreciate the international quality of the sher).

Aap aaye hamare thread par, khuda ki kudrat hai...
Kabhi hum apne thread ko, kabhi apne haath mein sookhe bread ko dekhte hain!
Waah waah!

To tell you frankly, I find that the leadership leaves a lot to be desired...the people management part of it...majorly is the lack of intuition and courage while taking a decision.

Here's my little theory, let me know if you agree with it.

For starters, I'd give a little credit to the managers and say that the finger may not always point at them. In all probability, they were thinking exactly like you and me when they joined the organisation. But the whole incentive system is geared towards risk reduction and predictability.

As companies grow bigger, the number of rules and policies needed to ensure sanity internally, grows. Which is why there's so much focus on standardisation of processes and hierarchies. The entrepreneurial spirit that launched the company and took it to where it is, often gets lost during the journey.

Managers 'adapt' to the company culture and do what will give them maximum returns. So regular intelligent and high-potential guys turn into corporate zombies and do what the powers that be expect them to do.

But if I go for an MBA today, will I come out on the other side a far better person than what I am today?

It certainly won't make you kind, considerate and more humane than you already are. So curious to know your definition of 'better person'.

Will an MBA teach me how to take decisions intuitively...

No. If you've already got your hands on the book, you'll know my my take on a whole lot of things that an MBA can and cannot teach.

I read a book once, Managers NOT MBAs by Henry Mintzberg....he said "The MBA trains the wrong people in the wrong ways with the wrong consequences".

You'll find a reference to Mintzberg's work as well as many other stalwarts who've done serious work in this arena.
I come nowhere close to these real gurus of the academic world. So my style, tone and content is very different from the way Mintzberg & Co have approached it. I've written the book in a more tongue-in-cheek manner.

Although I have taken the GMAT, I am not able to decide if it is worth the effort and the money to go for an MBA, especially given the kind of "Managers" I have seen in my experience. Just wanted to know your perspective on it.

Re-wording Mintzberg sahab's tagline, if you think you are the 'right person' going in with the 'right expectations', then there are better chances that you'll end up with the 'right consequences'. In your post-MBA manager's role, you'll also be in a better position to alter the prevalent management practices that you don't like and set an example to future managers within the organisation.

Have decided to place an order for your book as soon as I finish the current one I am reading .

Please do come back and share your thoughts on the book, Murty saar. Plus I'm sure you'll have many more questions after reading it.

- Need shayari lessons?

Hello Sameer,

I am once more not sure if this is the right thread or not, but the quickest way to get to you perhaps :)

I just want your thoughts about Copenhagen Business Schools, a SWOT analysis perhaps ? (if possible, hope I ain't sounding pushy)

BR// Ayon
(I couldn't get educational loan this year, as our property is not "freehold" so unfortunately, I will have to let go of Schulich India .... Only other college I applied was Copenhagen Business School, have talked with current / alumni, got mixed response)

CheckEETS Says

LOL...:) Let me bask in the glory for some time at least, Martian man!

Zaroor basko-fy bandhu-shri. Continue sharing your perspectives (I think your responses last time were spot on) and more glory shall come your way.

Hopefully woh din door nahi when people start thanking you directly for your valuable tips rather than re-directing it to me by default .

And I also hope your contributions prompt other shy ones to join in with their thoughts and opinions, and not just questions.

- Looking for glory?

Since the discussion is on the difference between perception and reality, I am someone who has had my share of disappointments . I slogged 12 years in school and completed 4 years of college hoping that I will make a valuable engineer someday. I work for an IT company now and my work now has nothing to do with what I learnt during 4 years of specialized education(or even the 3 months that the company spent on my training). They could have hired me right out of school(10th standard i mean).

I guess the world is not supposed to make sense anyway. The people who grow our food barely make Rs.20000 a year. I cannot believe someone is willing to pay me 20 times that amount for preparing Excel sheets:shocked:

So here's the question. If I pursue MBA, will i LEARN anything in those 2 years that I could actually put to use after I complete it? Or should I do it because a guy with MBA is paid more to prepare excel sheets than a guy with B.E?

My boss once told me if I stick around long enough in the IT industry i could become a Business Analyst. He also suggested some exam that i could take(I forgot the name).

Suggestions?

Bhupisuhag Says

Initially, I thought of MBA in the final year ...didn't made it so dropped the idea...and decided to try my hand in corporate...

Whatever happened 4 years back seems to be working for you now, as you discovered an industry that you like and want to be associated with for in the long run.

Top most Reason : not to change neither industry nor career but to fast track my career within IT industry..
:
Now Finally, I seek your take on this...Do I justify my reasons....

Haanji, sahi jaa rahe ho.

Will one year program will work for me

For many of the European 1-year programs, your experience level will be below the class average. But there are still a few that you can target in Asia and Europe where you'd fit in well.

Post MBA, Hows transition happen from one domain to other within same industry( Operations to consulting or advisory).

Though you are hoping to stick to the IT industry, you are still aiming for a role-change. It won't be as radical as IT-to-Ibanking. But don't underestimate the challenge.

The regular advice that applies to career changers would apply to you too. Think of why anybody would want to get an expensive new guy onboard, when they have tons of talented folks with potential within their company who'd be willing to jump into the new role at a fraction of what you'd demand after getting the spanking new degree on the CV.

Got an answer ready for that?

- SK

2. More work.... working more than 12 hrs a day almost everyday...

In India, we project late hours in the office as hard-work and it's seeped into our work culture. Those who follow the herd appear macho and committed. Those who try to achieve a balance between word and life are perceived to be misfits in the corporate world. Ironic!

In western countries it may be perceived as inefficiency, lack of planning and issues with time-management. Probably it's the company management to blame for encouraging such a culture, but fact is they aren't applying to bschools...you are.

So be careful not to send the wrong signals in your apps, bro.

- Wondering how to achieve work-life balance?

Hello Sameer,
First of all hearty congratulation for the success of your book.You have really figure out a nice topic which was actually required.

Did you shift your focus from MBA to non-MBA courses after reading the book or before? :-)

I am planing to do 1 year Post graduate course in Supply Chain and Logistics
:
but I am little concerned about post course work.

When it comes to SCM, Cranfield is quite strong. So if you are open to UK options, that would be my top choice.

If the visa situation in the UK scares you, and you have to turn to Singapore, then I'd guess NUS is fine too. But to be honest, I don't know much about their non-MBA courses. So you'll have to do your own research in that area.

Find out how long the course has been in existence. See if you can contact a few current students who'll give you all the latest dope on placements, acads, profs etc.

Have you checked up with the good Indian bschools that offer similar courses?

- SK

Hey Sameer,
I have heard about MBA crystal ball before,...

Badhai ho Sandeep ji. You are one of the astute ones who know what special names and brands to hunt for. That quality will take you places :-)

Before you start wondering if that was a compliment for you or for MBA Crystal Ball or both, let's back again to your main queries.

One question ...is how I am I better than an average IT guy. I answered the following, but it seemed the they were not satisfied.

CheckEETS has already provided you some perspectives earlier (on the certifications you were planning to do) and you ended up thanking me for his (apt and useful, I must add) contribution. We'll talk about your other points one by one.

1. Good acads . State level rank holder in 10th and 12th in top 100

Usually these are considered irrelevant for MBA admissions. But if you did exceedingly well (like a top rank), it doesn't hurt to mention that.

2. Almost 4 years of team managing experience of 6.5 years work ex and that to a global one where each of my team member is sitting in all different location and experience of managing 2 vendor companies to whom we outsourced the software development

Adcoms get many variations of this scenario. So even if it is actually tough to do what you are doing, after years of being conditioned into hearing it they may tend to downplay it.

3. Fast track promotions in my company.. always got them before time

This would've been a good point. However, frequency of promotions is less impactful than explaining how your roles & responsibilities have changed due to these promotions.

4. 2 Years of work ex in countries like Russia and Czech republic

Again, like in the earlier point, the name of the country is less important than the role you were doing. For example, if you were in Russia doing exactly what you were doing in India, it is not a differentiator.

5. Product implementation work ex.

This would be a good point, if you could contrast how the product implementation work was different from what others do. For folks in the IT industry, it may be relatively obvious, but don't assume that Adcoms would automatically know the difference. Always good to break it down and lay it on the table.

6. Good extra curricular exp

Rather than just listing down the activity, explain why it is important for you, what you've gained from it and (without stretching it too much) how it has influenced you.

Just wanted to know if a person is in IT how would he differentiate his profile. What exactly extra the IT people do? Requesting you to give some examples.

Often perception is based upon how your structure and present your profile. Some guys are pros at it and others go with the assumption that being from an over represented pool is their worst enemy.

Rather than spending time doing to many random things just for the sake of standing out, next time you can work on shaping the perception based on whatever you've already achieved in the last 4 years.

Go ahead and floor them in the next attempt, bro.

- Struggling with self-branding?

1.sir through your book you gave an idea about the many programmes/certifications that a candidate can opt for to get into his desired profession.but how do thease certifications or programmes help a candidate in terms of flexibility that an MBA degree offers .like there are many who do an mba thinking that he/she will become the ceo of a company one day,and aceo is someone who is responsible for running the company and should have a generalist idea of everything rather than having a specialised idea in a particular field which is the aim of most of the certification programmes.also an with an mba a person can have the flexibility to move from various roles to roles in different orgnzn.like for ex an mba finance can have the option to work for the finance dept of an FMCG cos if he chooses not to work for a financial instin or vice versa with an MBA (marketing)..so is not an MBA deree helpful from that perspective.

2.How rewarding can it be if a person opts for a b-school that is reputed in his fied of interest other than blindly going for any institute of high repute.also whats the difference between a 2 year mba and a 1year mba other than the fact that 2 year mba allows a career switch which is otherwise not possible with 1 year mba.if a person does not want a career switch but a shift in domai then should he opt for 1 year or 2 year mba..and is it beneficial to go for 2 year mba with 5-6 year of w.ex even if there's no inclination towards changing field and would only like to change the domain..or for that purpose is 1 year mba helpful.

3.can every bschool leverage the more or less high w.ex of candidate in their 2 year programme or for that purpose is a 1 year mba helpful...

Just finished reading your book "Beyond the MBA hype"..it's a very good book and was highly informative specially about the skills that one needs to survive and be successful in the businessworld ,how to make successful career transition even without the coveted MBA degree ,proper introspection as to whether one needs an MBA or not ..all these were really informative ..and the main USP of the book as to what i felt is Appendix D which are a set of questions/doubts that a candidate is likely to encounter in his mind before he embarks on the MBA journey and during the process of his/her MBA.If one successfully gets answer to all the questions in the query list before he/she starts the MBA journey i guess that person is already halfway through to his desired goal whichever it might be.Keep up the goodwork sir...

Hello Sir ,
I'm a mechanical engineer & I've just started working (two months work-ex)for a city gas disribution company based in northern India . I'm in the marketing dept & i chose this because I wanted to get into the 'business' aspect of an organisation rather than an engineering job.

I'm currently earning around 45-50k per month.
Also,since its a govt company, work related stress is negligible & I have weekends off ; i'm planning to work somewhere(probably teach) on weekends to earn extra.

Now ,
Most good b-schools students are placed at an average in-hand salary of 65-70k pm.( mere observation , pls correct me if i'm wrong ).
Probably ,only the top 5 b-schools in india offer more.

Would it be viable for me to invest close to 12 lacs( mba fees) to earn an increment of 10-15k per month. ?

The reasons why I wish to do an mba are :
a. Money (Better Pay Package)
b. Learning Potential (Exposure)
c. Future Career Opportunities

These are the options available for me :
1. Slog my ass off this year, crack cat next year & get into an iim (class 2013).

2. If the above doesn't work , stick to this job for 3-4 years , & then opt for an executive mba. Have heard that it yields higher returns than an mba.

3. After 3-4 years : write gmat , if i do get a good score then go for an mba from a good foreign university. But an mba abroad would easily cost me more than 60 lacs & i don't have the reqd resources..Such a huge bank loan would be highly undesirable.

4. After 3-4 years : write Gmat , if i Don't get a good enough score , then work for a couple of more years possibly in the middle east (since they have high natural gas reserves, hence good opportunity ) to get a global work-ex & then get an mba/ or any other certification depending on the circumstances.. I hv read that a global work ex counts a lot for mba interviews into a foreign university.


Please suggest what are the viable future course of actions that i should plan for & do correct me in case my notions differ from the true picture.
Thanx..

sood26 Says

I am little wary of feeling into the "start-up" temptation because starting from scratch might be very challenging and I might burn out facing all those challenges than making use of my potential.

Baby steps is the name of the game, Sood paaji. Try something small, figure out where it is going, take corrective actions. And build up the model. Big bang approach usually doesn't work for entrepreneurship, unless you've gone through the process before and are absolutely sure where you are investing your resources.

I think right now my work is going good and I have received some heartening feedback, so I guess I should continue building a good brand for myself at work place and keep an eye out for my ojectives.

Excellent plan, buddy. In parallel, keep yourself plugged into the PG grapevine.

- SK

Thanks for your input, gave me some data to process. Thank you again!
Other schools :-
1.) Tepper
2.) McCombs
3.) Flagler

Good luck with the other schools, buddy. Tell us when you hear back from them.

- SK

You know I have been thinking of posting my queries here, but Sameer kinda scares me (I have spoken to him before)!

I was wondering if I should mail him separately or use this forum. Man! He is like d big daddy who has an eye on you like! You better do this in time!!! (grr..)

I will be mailing Sameer anyway.

In the interim, for the people on this thread is there anyone who is applying to INSEAD and does not have an international work-ex or an int stint at all? Anyone any thoughts on this? (given that INSEAD doesnt encourage re-applicants, do you think it is worth taking a chance by applying widout int exp.)

Hi Sameer,

I have read your book, and must commend you for a nice compilation of the ground realities regarding the MBA...setting the right expectations is absolutely vital to avoid future disappointments. Would have liked to have a chapter on "selecting the right b-school", but the probably that is what we have MBA-CB and this thread for..keep the gyan flowing

Hi Sameer,

Interesting thread .

Before I begin let me put across my profile. I scored a 720 in the GMAT which I took recently. I belong to the ubiquitous IT pool and I don't have anything to show for extra-curriculars. Frankly I never bothered, because nothing ever interested me. Only thing I have done is I have read loads of books in my free time .

I have spent close to 6 years now with 2 IT giants. To tell you frankly, I find that the leadership leaves a lot to be desired. I am not talking about bean-counting here but the people management part of it.What I have noticed majorly is the lack of intuition and courage while taking a decision. For example, I have seen top level managers let very excellent people leave the organization because they were either too afraid to set a precedent or unable to let go off the "dear" processes that are put on paper. Whereas, with a little more common sense and positive intent they could have prevented such people from leaving. I don't know where all the good people have gone eventually but what this has done is, it has left behind a huge chunk of bozos in the organization who someday will eventually get promoted further and occupy top positions.

Newspapers will always report the stock values and the mutli billion dollar assets of these giants but they don't talk about the number of clients who have left citing "managerial issues" as a reason. Again this boils down to the same reasons I have cited above.

The kind of managers I have seen in my profession has really put doubts in my mind.

What I want to know is what exactly does an MBA teach you? People are spending lakhs of rupees and then spending half of their life repaying that loan. But if I go for an MBA today, will I come out on the other side a far better person than what I am today? I am not even talking about the money part of it. If an MBA is not going to do anything other than add a few more zeroes to my package, I don't need it. Will an MBA teach me how to take decisions intuitively or will it only teach me how to follow and stick to the processes come what may? What is the value add that comes out of an MBA other than the alumni networking, fat pay package etc?

I read a book once, Managers NOT MBAs by Henry Mintzberg. And I think he hit the nail bang on the head when he said "The MBA trains the wrong people in the wrong ways with the wrong consequences".

Although I have taken the GMAT, I am not able to decide if it is worth the effort and the money to go for an MBA, especially given the kind of "Managers" I have seen in my experience. Just wanted to know your perspective on it.

Cheers..

PS - Have decided to place an order for your book as soon as I finish the current one I am reading .

sulzirsha Says

My CAT score will let me knw,whether i'm prepared for the two years studies or not.

The CAT score will let you know what schools you can get into. Whether you are prepared for 2 additional years of hard academic work or not will have to be more of an introspective decision, Sulthana.

Though he is technically sound,didn't know how to deal with his employees and grow the business,which led to a serious prob.

Unfortunately, that's the way most 'new economy' tech business are run. The tech wizkids come up with a fundoo service or product that gets lapped up by the market.

And then the same set of people assume they can manage business aspects of the venture as well, rather than get qualified folks in.

Maybe it's the fear of losing control, maybe it is an over-estimation of their own capabilities, maybe it is ego. Some are successful, but a majority of such high potential ventures hit a roadblock for reasons that have nothing to do with technical skills.

I was just 21 at that time and understood the root cause of the problem,why the company was going to get shut down.It's all bcuz of my manager's Wrong decisions,Bad attitude n communication skills,etc.,.

That's the beauty of business decisions, Sulthana. It is such a subjective topic that every person from his or her perspective is right. I'm sure the manager was as confident as you are about his decisions when he took them.

In hindsight, we can all look back and say 'See? I told you so. You should have listened to me.'

But don't assume, in an MBA program you'll automatically pick up eveything you need to take good decisions. You may learn sophisticated decision analysis frameworks. But judgement will be something that has to come from within.

The book talks about the skills that can be picked up in an MBA program and those that can't. Check out this Rediff article (based on the book), that talks about what they can never teach you in business school.

Money n designation is very much important .Another important thing for me,is the job satisfaction.

Is that the order? If given the option, I'd have re-ordered it slightly. But different folks have different priorities :-)

Thought of getting some suggestions from experts and found the right place n right person.

Aap toh hamein sharminda kar rahi ho. But I hope you are finding the interaction useful.

- Wondering if authors can blush?