Oh Man. Now this is called National Integrity:-

cognizant_81 Says

your statements rather sounds more illogical.you are saying that your fundamental right has been denied,with what right can you speak being a citizen of India BY degrading, demeaning SECOND OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF INDIA.IS THIS NOT VIOLATION OF ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT OF THE CONSTITTUTION THAT YOU ARE MAKING GRAVE BLUNDER IN DENYING THE FACT HINDI IS NOT THE LANGUAGE REQUIRED TO BE SPOKEN IN STATES WHERE WIDE PROTESTS TOOK PLACE.

are you able to comprehend what i write or are you just shooting off your mouth becoz i am opposing you? where in my posts have i degraded and demeaned hindi? please show me one such line?

all i have been arguing is that hindi should not be imposed. how is this degrading?

if we go by ur rule why stop at language? aise toh ye bhi rule bana do nah ki every indian should follow hinduism and that everyone shud eat roti and not rice (thats what the majority of indians eat right?). Why r u just stopping at Hindi? one language ke saath one religion and one culture bhi ho jayega - more integration

for your kind information all states except maharshtra and TN have 1st language as Hindi in their schools and second language as the mother tongue of the state.

u need to pull ur head out of wherever u r sticking it and see what is the ground reality. AP mein first language is telugu, Karnataka mein it is kannada, orissa mein odiya, kerala mein malayalam. In all government schools. In cases where the school is not english medium, that is the main language taught in schools and not english also.

so with your statements that one should expect that if all the administrative works of a particular state should be taken as per mother-tongue of the state then one should hire interpreter for every kind of work that is related to centre because at center obviously Hindi or English administrative works take place unfortunately this is practically impossible as several difficulties will prop up in day to day progress of the country w.r.t centre-state official matters.

you really need to come out of ur fantasy land and see the world. If i want to be an officer in any state, i am required to know the language of that state. if i am trying to apply for govt posts in maharashtra, i am tested in marathi and english. Because the state conducts its business in marathi and english so that if need arises to interact with other states, then english is used. In AP the exam consists of english and telugu. pls go thru the public service commission of the individual states (not just maharashtra, AP and TN - every state). Every state insists on proficiency of local language. I repeat EVERY.

if that would be the case if these states deny the fact that even centre has right to stop the funds going to these states for industrial,cultural and development of society.article 348 in constitution itself says provision of official language Hindi or English ought to be used for administrative and other kinds of works and not solely the works should be based on mother tongue of the state.

Since you are referring to article 348 of the Indian Constitution, pls let me reproduce said article (verbatim)

Article 348 in The Constitution Of India 1949
348. Language to be used in the Supreme Court and in the High Courts and for Acts, Bills, etc (1) Notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this Part, until Parliament by law otherwise provides
(a) all proceedings in the Supreme Court and in every High Court,
(b) the authoritative texts
(i) of all Bills to be introduced or amendments thereto to be moved in either House of Parliament or in the House or either House of the Legislature of a State,
(ii) of all Acts passed by Parliament or the Legislature of a State and of all Ordinances promulgated by the President or the Governor of a State, and
(iii) of all orders, rules, regulations and bye laws issued under this Constitution or under any law made by Parliament or the Legislature of a State, shall be in the English language

(2) Notwithstanding anything in sub clause (a) of clause ( 1 ), the Governor of a State may, with the previous consent of the President, authorise the use of the Hindi language, or any other language used for any official purposes of the State, in proceedings in the High Court having its principal seat in that State: Provided that nothing in this clause shall apply to any judgment, decree or order passed or made by such High Court

(3) Notwithstanding anything in sub clause (b) of clause ( 1 ), where the Legislature of a State has prescribed any language other than the English language for use in Bills introduced in, or Acts passed by, the Legislature of the State or in Ordinances promulgated by the Governor of the State or in any order, rule, regulation or bye law referred to in paragraph (iii) of that sub clause, a translation of the same in the English language published under the authority of the Governor of the State in the Official Gazette of that State shall be deemed to be the authoritative text thereof in the English language under this article

It is not Hindi or English. It is English or any other language as decided by the governor of the state with the consent of the President. The language Hindi is used only as an example

According to this article, Hindi has no place in any bills introduced in the Parliament of India. passed in the Parliament of India, in the proceedings of the Supreme Court. It is allowed only in state legislatures (like every other language) and in conducting the proceedings of the High Courts (like any other language).

So even according to the constitution (which you claim i am violating) Hindi has no special status apart from it being the one of the 2 official languages. Thats it. Its special status stops there.

@cognizant
buddy,
1st,when you are talking about the communication problem between centre and non-hindi speaking states..you should remember english already bridges that gap..and its also one of the official languages of india.
when we already have a language ENGLISH common between hindi and non hindi speaking states..why are you hell bent to impose a totally different language on them.
as far as the administrative language between centre and state is concerned..ENGLISH is working pretty smoothly so far n that was the sole purpose of OFFICIAL LANGUAGES ACT,1963.
2NDLY, Yup,offcouse its the fundamental right of @PENDYAL and any other citizen of india to communicate in any language of his choice..if someone is doubting their patriotism on such a lame point..his own patriotic status is no better than BAJRANG DAL..MNS n other petty self claimed patriotic groupr.
3RDLY,get ur facts right..expect from tamil nadu and maharastra HINDI is also not an OFFICIAL..OR SECOND MOTHER TONGUE of many other states like WEST BENGAL and ASSAM..so pls stop creating facts for supporting your article.
4THLY,constitution clearly says that a state is free to choose any language as its official language.
UNITING india on a common language is a good thing but,not as a maniac hoax patriotic favorism towards a single langugage..n a total indifference towards others.
if hindi can be that common link..why cant benagli marathi n urdu..even english offers a better stand..
LASTLY:an OFFICIAL language is a totally different thing..from a NATIONAL language..why are you making HINDI sound more and more like the latter..
and if you are so hell bent to link hindi with pariotism also link it with english..its also a NATIONAL language after all.

Well you made me sound like a staunch anti establishment guy, but let me assure you i am not. As far as the knee jerk reactions are concerned I said it's both the courts AND the government.

IMHO the removal of black tints on vehicles is also a knee reaction, as putting the general public through the trouble of driving in the heat doesn't solve the problem that we have been facing lately. There could have been a certain maximum percentage of tint that could have been allowed. The depraved individuals who indulge in such acts can always use vehicles with company tints. Better patrolling by the police and better conviction rates by the COURTs are more efficient ways to tackle this menace. As far as the government policy and decision making is concerned, every second action nowadays is a hasty reaction to something unpleasant.

PS - Window tints help in lowering carbon emissions. Go green.
Lawsuit for speaking against the courts. :biggrin:

If your arguement of upholding tinted glasses in car is that it helps in reducing carbon emission, then I have a simple question for you. What's more important today? To stop, or act as a deterrent to, the growing crimes against women in India or to Go Green? I'm not saying it would STOP crimes, but banning black films is sure one of the many ways that would help in minimizing crimes.

I'm all for greenery and all, but not at the cost of my sister's, mother's or girlfriends' security. Plus, higher conviction rates would come into picture only when you catch hold of the offender. In some cases, black tints have acted as an abettor to the offender in absconding.

If a car with tinted glasses is abruptly stopped near one of the street corner stalls after 8PM, you ever thought how does a girl who is standing there feel about it? It's that one thing where higher conviction rates and better patrolling won't do much good. Are we not, in a way, jeopardising her right to freedom, both physically and psychologically?

Also it was annexed in the writ filed in the Supreme Court that there have been more crimes (against women) in vehicles with tinted glasses than in the vehicles with normal transparent glasses. Further, transparent glasses would also help in identifying the accused in a hit-and-run case, or when one breaks the traffic signal (also cause of many road accidents)

Just because I don't like people peeping into my car when I travel with my family or because tinted glasses offer the sun allergic some relief or because it helps in reducing carbon emission, doesn't mean its cons which are more and graver in numbers could be overlooked.

Supreme Court rightly said, and I quote 'We need to understand that a trivial indiviual protection or privacy, if any, must yield in favour of the larger public interest.'

There are those who say the current government lacks accountability and 'transparency'. It's unfortunate that the same people shy away from having transparency in their own vehicles.

adityacooool Says

Wow! You are correcting me everywhere!! It's like you are my angel godmother on PG. . Thanks again for correcting me. I'll be sure to run my posts by you in the future before I actually post them. *bow*

No Thank You.

I have no time, and in no mood either, to act as a 'godmother' to aditicooool. Damn, adityacooool I meant.


AT

If the government does the same today, i would be one of the people on the streets opposing it, because IT IS AGAINST MY RIGHTS GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION.


I am surprised u cant see the logical contradiction in the example u r using and what u r proposing. On one hand u r saying that italians, mexican and french who go to US speak in English becoz that is the language of US.

Aisa hai toh ppl going to Chennai must learn tamil (and not the other way round), ppl going to Mumbai shud learn marathi (and not the other way round), ppl going to Hyderabad shud learn Urdu and Telugu, ppl going to Bengaluru shud learn Kannada.

If i am going into a different city to earn a living, shud i mold myself to the city or shud the city mold itself to me? the city cud survive before i came in....it can survive without me as well.... (before u go all ballistic, i am not advocating protectionism..all i am saying is that i am a migrant to a different city. It is correct to mold myself to the behaviour of the city rather than the other way round)

your statements rather sounds more illogical.you are saying that your fundamental right has been denied,with what right can you speak being a citizen of India BY degrading, demeaning SECOND OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF INDIA.IS THIS NOT VIOLATION OF ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT OF THE CONSTITTUTION THAT YOU ARE MAKING GRAVE BLUNDER IN DENYING THE FACT HINDI IS NOT THE LANGUAGE REQUIRED TO BE SPOKEN IN STATES WHERE WIDE PROTESTS TOOK PLACE.

for your kind information all states except maharshtra and TN have 1st language as Hindi in their schools and second language as the mother tongue of the state.

I pity on your statements by saying a person going to TN should speak tamil going to maharashtra should speak marathi etc.so with your statements that one should expect that if all the administrative works of a particular state should be taken as per mother-tongue of the state then one should hire interpreter for every kind of work that is related to centre because at center obviously Hindi or English administrative works take place unfortunately this is practically impossible as several difficulties will prop up in day to day progress of the country w.r.t centre-state official matters.

if that would be the case if these states deny the fact that even centre has right to stop the funds going to these states for industrial,cultural and development of society.article 348 in constitution itself says provision of official language Hindi or English ought to be used for administrative and other kinds of works and not solely the works should be based on mother tongue of the state.

Atlast but not least its not the public but the politicians who are playing dirty games murkier politics in brainwashing public against speaking Hindi and not allowing people to learn Hindi which if they would have learnt would be today better off in society contributing not only to the country but also to the state and to their family.

as per Hindi being globally recognized The 8th World Hindi Conference was inaugurated at the United Nations headquarters on 13th July, 2007.

Errr.. But this also reminds me that I love the confidence with which you write wrong piece of information
...........
It's so important to get the facts and basics right.

AT

Wow! You are correcting me everywhere!! It's like you are my angel godmother on PG. . Thanks again for correcting me. I'll be sure to run my posts by you in the future before I actually post them. *bow*

lets take an analogy a Mexican Italian,french etc, living in US speaks English(American) because they all work in a society where people official and administrative works are in English.

Living in the US i can quite firmly state that this isn't completely true. Practically every help-line i've had to call offers support in both English and Espanol simply because the percentage of population speaking that language has risen to the point where such support is needed. Indeed Hispanics are now considered a vote-bank and both presidential candidates are going all out to woo them.

@pendyal
you need to recheck with the facts suppose anti- hindi riots were specifically in TN,karnataka,maharashtra .In bengal though there was movement but you would find that people in Bengal do not find difficult in understanding hindi.

where did i say the riots were because ppl didnt understand the language? please show me the lines in my post which give rise to this meaning? the riots were against the imposition of Hindi as the sole Official Language of the Government of India (and indirectly making it the National Language). I repeat, the riots were against the forceful imposition and not because ppl didnt understand the language or didnt want to learn it....they despised being deprived of the choice of deciding it for themselves. If the government does the same today, i would be one of the people on the streets opposing it, because IT IS AGAINST MY RIGHTS GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION.

now especially in TN and maharashtra due to political reasons anti-hindi conflicts were on hype.

not just in TN, the riots happened in AP and Karnataka also. In Maharashtra the riots were against outsiders, especially Tamilians. The same plank that MNS is fighting on today, the Shiv Sena fought on in the 1960s and 70s.

now one can understand that in rural areas in these states people may not be knowing Hindi not because they dont like Hindi but rather there was no such requirement to learn Hindi as for earning their daily wages.
now the pitiable and the most shameful thing is in metro cities like Mumbai and Chennai if one goes feels himself alienated if one speaks Hindi where people from different communities come and work together earn their livelihood then the necessity of speaking common language comes with a purpose which also affects the business prospects of the city.

today also many hesitate to settle at Chennai if it were only humid climate then you would be surprised to know lot of Hindi speaking people reside in kolkata also.it is the language problem due to which Chennai hasn't progressed even the cosmopolitan cities bangalore and hyderabad have progressed at faster rate compared to this.

lets take an analogy a Mexican, Italian,french etc living in US speaks English(American) because they all work in a society where people official and administrative works are in English.
well in India though English has also been given an alternative but not a permanent solution for language problem.
now Hindi has also gained global recognition unfortunately some people of India still demean it thinking their culture will get derided i pity on narrow-minded thinking of such people infact if they would hve adopted the common language the better their society culture will develop lest it would remain the same for several years to come.

I am surprised u cant see the logical contradiction in the example u r using and what u r proposing. On one hand u r saying that italians, mexican and french who go to US speak in English becoz that is the language of US.

Aisa hai toh ppl going to Chennai must learn tamil (and not the other way round), ppl going to Mumbai shud learn marathi (and not the other way round), ppl going to Hyderabad shud learn Urdu and Telugu, ppl going to Bengaluru shud learn Kannada.

If i am going into a different city to earn a living, shud i mold myself to the city or shud the city mold itself to me? the city cud survive before i came in....it can survive without me as well.... (before u go all ballistic, i am not advocating protectionism..all i am saying is that i am a migrant to a different city. It is correct to mold myself to the behaviour of the city rather than the other way round)

____________
now Hindi has also gained global recognition unfortunately some people of India still demean it thinking their culture will get derided i pity on narrow-minded thinking of such people infact if they would hve adopted the common language the better their society culture will develop lest it would remain the same for several years to come.

i have highlighted a part of your post in bold above.

how do you infer that? what arguments can you give to support that?

One thing i can understand from this thread is that there is a lot of passion involved in views , way the views are being projected.. Somehow i feel that people here are trying prove a point all the time ..

I can understand people are putting factually wrong information or may be have lack of knowledge. But to prove your point , one does not need to slap on his/her face and make him/her listen.. rather we can just pat on the back and say "hey this is the factual source , this is where you are wrong "

There are a lot of well qualified people on this forum , but i am really surprised to see how we are behaving with each other .. I guess no matter which profession.. we need to deal with people and we need to deal with them with patience

PS: This is not an ego satisfying , on your face , i am "better" proving kind of thread .. rather we have common problems and we are here to discuss how they may be resolved ...

However, this:
Can you please give 3 examples (the more, the better) where you felt the judgements of our courts were knee-jerk? I mean, saying things like that really requires some opinion.

I used to believe that our courts (at least the SC) have done a fabolous job in maintaing certain paradigms in our society that would have been long lost had it not taken suo-moto cognizance of them. (I can give you far more examples than just '3') So, I really would like to know what kinda judgements you think were knee-jerk? And if you can't, how about paying a defamation suit?
AT

Well you made me sound like a staunch anti establishment guy, but let me assure you i am not. As far as the knee jerk reactions are concerned I said it's both the courts AND the government.

IMHO the removal of black tints on vehicles is also a knee reaction, as putting the general public through the trouble of driving in the heat doesn't solve the problem that we have been facing lately. There could have been a certain maximum percentage of tint that could have been allowed. The depraved individuals who indulge in such acts can always use vehicles with company tints. Better patrolling by the police and better conviction rates by the COURTs are more efficient ways to tackle this menace. As far as the government policy and decision making is concerned, every second action nowadays is a hasty reaction to something unpleasant.

PS - Window tints help in lowering carbon emissions. Go green.
Lawsuit for speaking against the courts.

@pendyal

you need to recheck with the facts suppose anti- hindi riots were specifically in TN,karnataka,maharashtra .In bengal though there was movement but you would find that people in Bengal do not find difficult in understanding hindi.
now especially in TN and maharashtra due to political reasons anti-hindi conflicts were on hype.

now one can understand that in rural areas in these states people may not be knowing Hindi not because they dont like Hindi but rather there was no such requirement to learn Hindi as for earning their daily wages.
now the pitiable and the most shameful thing is in metro cities like Mumbai and Chennai if one goes feels himself alienated if one speaks Hindi where people from different communities come and work together earn their livelihood then the necessity of speaking common language comes with a purpose which also affects the business prospects of the city.

the acts that shiv sena or MNS are doing in mumbai or maharashtra has brought defame by their own public because of the petty politics that these politicians play and even bal thackeray knows well that today mumbai has become business hub due to majority of Hindi speakers residing their and making their livelihood and not least lot of revenue mumbai has earned by bollywood films than marathi films. so people of mumbai localities have shunned these petty politics and came up and realized fact and importance of Hindi due to which their state has progressed so much.

today also many hesitate to settle at Chennai if it were only humid climate then you would be surprised to know lot of Hindi speaking people reside in kolkata also.it is the language problem due to which Chennai hasn't progressed even the cosmopolitan cities bangalore and hyderabad have progressed at faster rate compared to this.

lets take an analogy a Mexican, Italian,french etc living in US speaks English(American) because they all work in a society where people official and administrative works are in English.
well in India though English has also been given an alternative but not a permanent solution for language problem.
now Hindi has also gained global recognition unfortunately some people of India still demean it thinking their culture will get derided i pity on narrow-minded thinking of such people infact if they would hve adopted the common language the better their society culture will develop lest it would remain the same for several years to come.

Due to lack of time, just went through the first 6 posts, and I have a thing against each of 'em. Would surely go through the rest as and when time permits.

However, this:

As far as the recent SC judgment regarding the 'chinki' word is concerned , I see nothing progressive in it. It is just another knee jerk reaction that our courts and governments are famous for.

Can you please give 3 examples (the more, the better) where you felt the judgements of our courts were knee-jerk? I mean, saying things like that really requires some opinion.

I used to believe that our courts (at least the SC) have done a fabolous job in maintaing certain paradigms in our society that would have been long lost had it not taken suo-moto cognizance of them. (I can give you far more examples than just '3') So, I really would like to know what kinda judgements you think were knee-jerk? And if you can't, how about paying a defamation suit?

This reminds me of a recent law that the Supreme Court has passed against calling people from the North East - 'Chinkis'.

Errr.. But this also reminds me that I love the confidence with which you write wrong piece of information and pass judgements (and also go on about calling other people's information 'wrong').

From when ( I mean tell me even the era, dude!) has the Supreme Court started passing laws? You really need to learn the Law making procedure in India.

The law in point is passed by the Home Ministry, as in it has asked all states and union territories to file a case against anyone who calls a person from North East India a "chinki", and that too under the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. The punishement, you might know, is upto 5 years of imprisonment and denial of anticipatory bail.

It's so important to get the facts and basics right.

first and foremost thing is every citizen of the country ought to speak Hindi all institutions colleges administrative offices work education and every other kind of activity should take place is Hindi then slowly a common culture will evolve.

Why only HINDI? Why not Bengali? Why not Kannada? Heck, why not even English? Why just Hindi? Because Majority knows that? Just that? Then majority of India also lives in slums. How about we all living in slum and promoting a Slum India on global platform?

And I'm sorry to say, but a common culture will not prevail then. Rather what would start is what trigerred off in Bhaivandi during 1984 after Bal Thackrey's famous communal speech: riots and more hatred, hared and more riots with greater casualties.

One nation does not neccessarily mean one language, one religion, and the recent one, one exam. WTF, Sibbal!

Looking forward to reading other posts as well.

Great thread. And would post my views soon.


AT

It's surprising how quite this thread is, considering the incident mentioned above created quite a storm. Atleast a storm of PMs.

....

Its NOT the Supreme Court which has made any such law. Its the doing of the Ministry of Home Affairs. While I am not in favor of any racist pot shots, jailing someone for that is an extreme step and like you said its only going to broaden the rift.

I believe Center is to be blamed for that, over 6 decades, nobody even bothered about the 7 sister states and isolated them from the entire country, projected them as tribals and equated them with Chinese. That is what indoctrinated people in believing that they are from some other planet.

Also, everyone must know that it has been done as a build up for the 2014 General elections as the ruling party has lost ground in almost every Assemble elections. Now they are trying to compensate by gaining the sympathy of the North Eastern brethren and sisteren.

By the way, is there any jail term for calling someone a "Bhaiya"? Just curious :)

Regards,
Chinmay

Sory mod,
i use mobile for internet surfing..thus,the sms lingo n sms punctuation.
and typing long posts is a very hard job on mobile..
though,i will remember your warning ..

please don't treat this as a warning.
it is more of a request. for everyone's benefit here.
thanks.

can we please use proper punctuation and avoid using sms lingo here?

your replies are not at all readable.

Sory mod,
i use mobile for internet surfing..thus,the sms lingo n sms punctuation.
and typing long posts is a very hard job on mobile..
though,i will remember your warning ..

Yes even i got PM from the same user....Im sure he is the same guy...he said the same thing about the banned person being correct!! He was a bit too confused!!
...

Sorry gal,
if my post was a little hard.

"I just pointed out the probable cases.."
as i said,a country is known by how it treats its minority citizens.
its a shame that our country which wears a tag of secularism..treats its muslims..dalits n other minor sects in such a biased way.

IT would have been a blessing,if India was only divided by its languages and wealth.
wealth and language are such flip-flop parameters of discrimination,a victim atleast had a chance of upliftment.

if im allowed to speak honestly..i wud like to point out what miss sabrina khan said is a lil far fetched..as i could imagine a middle class man who neither has enough money nor enough power to discriminate and held such a public opinion of muslims..
in my belief,upper class(as i take it for granted that interview panel of a private company will be frm upper class or strongly influenced by them) mainly does not discriminate on the basis of religion n caste..upper caste strictly in my view discrimiate on the basis of money,social status n gender.
its my philosophy that a man always strives to overcome another man..either by pulling him down or pushin himself up.
a upper class man has money n a social status to boast off..so he judges another man on same parameters.
a middle class man..who has neither has enough money nor enough power..he differentiates the society by religion,caste n character.
for eg:if a middle class man1 has more wealth than man2..its offen seen man2 try to level wid him on the grounds of religion n caste..sayin he is a bloody sudra,if frm same caste..he is a drunkard..this sooths his ego..
a lower class man is most obssesd wid caste,rituals n religions..He follow each n every festival wid full vigour..he has no money no respect..so he divides d society into castes n massages his poverty..uplifts his ego.

its my personal views,
Discrimation has been rampant everywhere a civilisation is in progress,
its mans fetish to sooth his ego..to feel powerful.
Religion n caste discrimination are trademarks of middle n lower class..upper middle class is still shaking it off n upper class simply doesnt care less.
SORY MODERATOTS,
bt sabrina khans case seems lil outta common..more lik a rare case or a proxy situation to vent out her anger towards d discrimination she faces daily,,on a public forum.

can we please use proper punctuation and avoid using sms lingo here?

your replies are not at all readable.

banning user had been good instinct by mods and i think in this democratic country everybody has right to speak right to practice his/her own religion and anybody making derogatory remarks against somebody is like blasphemy.
be it Ram or allah or christ or guru nanak everybody deserve the same respect like one God several names.Sabrina has been right at defending herself that every individual's fundamental right .Self respect is biggest thing.first self respect should be preserved then national pride comes!!

British MBA forum:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: i am having nostalgic laugh.well atleast we should be thank-full to them that they have given us language which made us easier to speak in this world of course including PG:).Due to this language Indians have earned respect abroad for their intelligence,hard work and dedication .
some of the important contributions British did for India are Introduction of English Medium School, Introduction of Railway, Post and Telegraph, Judiciary, Civil Service, Efficient trained police, military forces,eradication of sati system and several econonmic reforms.

I then had another user PM me long-winded explanations and reasonings(I still have no idea what he is saying or trying to say) on why he thought the banned person was atleast partially correct.

Yes even i got PM from the same user....Im sure he is the same guy...he said the same thing about the banned person being correct!! He was a bit too confused!!

.............................................

Forgiveness has great healing ability, for both the forgiven and the forgiving. In this case, the power rests with Sabrina. I hope she forgives and moves on :).

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
MAHATMA GANDHI

Yes I am strong. I do forgive people. But it is really difficult to forget those ridiculous comments posted by him on the thread. Certain presumptions made by another user were silly and awful. Those statements actually made me feel weak. It will take some time to forget those comments!! And talking about the interviewers...yes I have moved on and I know they don't deserve me:).

if im allowed to speak honestly..i wud like to point out what miss sabrina khan said is a lil far fetched..
SORY MODERATOTS,
bt sabrina khans case seems lil outta common..more lik a rare case or a proxy situation to vent out her anger towards d discrimination she faces daily,,on a public forum.

No sir, it is not like that!! When did I say that I face it daily??!! ANd i used this forum to vent out my anger??:nono::nono:......A big NO ...It was POH thread. The question was such that it reminded me of this bad incident. Another reason for posting it on the public forum was that I wanted make people aware that still discrimination prevails in our society to some extent....Such incidents are isolated ones!!!

Now coming to the Point:

In my opinion, National Pride comes when there is feeling of ONENESS. And feeling of ONENESS comes when one thinks beyond Caste/Creed/Religion/Culture/Community/Status!!

if i am allowed to speak honestly,i would like to point out what miss sabrina khan said was a little far fetched,as i could imagine a middle class man who neither has enough money nor enough power to discriminate and held such a public opinion of muslims.
In my belief,upper class(as i take it for granted that interview panel of a private company will be from upper class or strongly influenced by them) mainly does not discriminate on the basis of religion n caste,upper caste strictly in my view discrimiate on the basis of money,social status n gender.
its my philosophy that a man always strives to overcome another man,either by pulling him down or pushing himself up.
a upper class man has money n a social status to boast off,so he judges another man on same parameters.
a middle class man,who neither has enough money nor enough power,differentiates the society by religion,caste n character.
for eg:if a middle class man1 has more wealth than man2..its offen seen man2 tries to level with him on the grounds of religion n caste,sayin he is a bloody sudra,if from same caste,he is a drunkard..this sooths his ego.
a low class man is most obsessed with caste,rituals n religions.He follows each n every festival with full vigour,he has no money no respect,so he divides the society into castes n massages his poverty,uplifts his ego.
its my personal views,
Discrimation has been rampant everywhere a civilisation is in progress,
its mans fetish to sooth his ego..to feel powerful.
Religion n caste discrimination are trademarks of middle n lower class..upper middle class is still shaking it off n upper class simply doesnt care less.
SORY MODERATOTS,
but sabrina khan's case seems little outta common,more lik a rare case or a proxy situation to vent out her anger towards d discrimination she faces daily,,on a public forum.

you must be very sad that britishers have left india.do you think the great revolutionaries like bhagat singh,mahatama gandhi,bose,patel,khan must not have weighf the options.
Let us assume that britishers have contributed to india,but the fact is that foreighn rule,positive or negative,is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.
That was the BASIC PREMISE on which FREEDOM STRUGgle was fought.i whould rather be POOR but to be OCCUPIED.

so unfair bro..Luks like patriotism is sold only in your shop..
you never got my point..did u..well lets waste no more words.

Seriously folks enough with the history lessons.

realitycheck: you are sounding like a troll now. Please stop. The British rule is not under discussion on this thread. We all accept that foreign rule is not good and that we've suffered for it. That was in the past. What excuse do we have now for not being more nationally integrated and what are we doing/can we do to change that?

cogni et all : there has to be more than just speaking one language, whatever language that is, to foster greater National Pride. Let's discuss that shall we?

realitycheck Says

It is looking like i am on british mba forum.

Yeaa... Funny that YOU should say that. (Ref: Your DP)

It is looking like i am on british mba forum.

you must be very sad that britishers have left india.do you think the great revolutionaries like bhagat singh,mahatama gandhi,bose,patel,khan must not have weighf the options.
Let us assume that britishers have contributed to india,but the fact is that foreighn rule,positive or negative,is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.
That was the BASIC PREMISE on which FREEDOM STRUGgle was fought.i whould rather be POOR but to be OCCUPIED.

i am really disappointed and sad seeing the level of arguments being put forward.....where in their posts did holycow or anyone else suggest that they supported the British or for that matter any other foreigner ruling India? where were the FREEDOM STRUGGLE or its BASIC PREMISES questioned? all that was being pointed out to users was that they got their facts wrong and that the reasons for the bengal famine or any other incident were not as was being tried to be portrayed in this thread (in this case that the british were not responsible for the bengal famine and that they tried to avoid it). If there is any proof to prove that the argument put forward by holycow is wrong, please post it instead of just casting aspersions on their character or patriotism.

in India National language is Hindi but English followed which is like common protocol for every Indian

Did you know that India does not have a National Language and that the Republic of India has two official (repeat official, not national) languages - Hindi and English. And as Neo pointed out, more people in India speak English than Hindi so why shouldnt English be made the National Language. Later in your post you chose to assume that people in AP and Karnataka are well versed in Hindi. I am not sure about Karnataka but let me assure you that the number of people who know English in AP is greater than those that know Hindi. Outside the Hyderabad region, you would be lucky if you can someone who understands Hindi.

Another lesson is that not only does the constitution of India not define a national language but gives the same status as Hindi to 21 other Indian Languages - the status of scheduled languages or official languages

such comfortable feeling when comes in through sharing a common language then this itself acts like a magic wand clubbing different communities in faster and efficient way.

yes, no questions asked on this point. but who decides what that language should be? and should that language be forced on everyone doing away with basic human freedoms which btw are guaranteed by our constitution?

as mentioned by Neo regarding language let me explain with analogy there is class of 100 students 90 students are there who apart from knowing their dialect know a common dialect which is easily spoken and comprehended but the remaining 10 are facing here difficulty as they find comfortable with speaking in their own dialect but not able to learn the common dialect whatever may be the reason.now teacher comes so for a teacher will it be easier to get those 10 students help in learning common dialect or would it be easier for making 90 students learn the particular dialect those 10 students know.

althoug it is wrong to force even 10% of the population to follow/learn a particular path because they belong to a different language group/ethnicity, let us for the time being go along with your argument. The population of the states of AP, TN, Orissa, Karnataka, Kerala and the North East comes to 33,21,17,999 or close to one third of the population of the country.have you any idea what is gonna happen if the decision is forced on the country? a simple proposal to remove English as the official language led to widespread demonstrations in the states of West Bengal, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Pondicherry (UT) and Kerala. This is also the reason for the hatred against Hindi speaking people in the states of both Tamil Nadu and Karnataka (If you want to experience this first hand, try hiring an auto in Tamil Nadu or Karnataka by speaking in Hindi. I am willing to bet safely that you will end up paying twice as much as when you would have spoken in English or maybe even in Telugu in these states.)

as mentioned by pendyal yes its true that most of the states dont have hindi as language well even in south but i think except TN and kerala other states like Karnataka and AP also people are well versed in Hindi they can speak and understand same holds true for Bengal Orissa.

have you been to these states sir? the root areas for the anti-Hindi riots were AP, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka and West Bengal. I would request you to please go through the history of modern India. even if you werent inquisitive after the incident which happened to you and jumped to a conclusion, your inquisitiveness should have been sparked off by the recent controversy regarding the cartoons in the NCERT textbooks.

Now for NE region its govt fault to some extent for not able to provide sufficient support for growth and development of that region which made the people living there alienated thus Hindi being banned.

Hindi is banned in North East India? ye kab hua? any sources for this?

But if one goes script wise all the languages except tamil and malayalam rest originated from sanskrit and hindi being one of the offshoots of sanskrit being devnagari script is easily understood because of this common dialect affect.thus even in these states where hindi is not spoken still they understand and speak hindi and if put into practice even they can also speak perfect hindi.

Telugu is derived from Sanskrit. Yes, this is true. SO is Hindi.So you should undertand me if i speak to you in telugu, right? or after just a few weeks training you should be able to understand what i am speaking right? so why not use telugu as the national language.

Hell, since all indian languages are derived from sanskrit, why not chuck everything and make sanskrit the national language? after all it has also scientifically been proven that sanskrit is one of the most optimal human languages to be used with computers also. what do you say?

1st Get ur facts right buddy..
......

you must be very sad that britishers have left india.do you think the great revolutionaries like bhagat singh,mahatama gandhi,bose,patel,khan must not have weighf the options.
Let us assume that britishers have contributed to india,but the fact is that foreighn rule,positive or negative,is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE.
That was the BASIC PREMISE on which FREEDOM STRUGgle was fought.i whould rather be POOR but to be OCCUPIED.

what a discussion going on

just a small observation i wanted to mention here.

in India we are himachalis, punjabis, biharis, delhities, mallus, telugus, madrasis and what not.

we even discriminate heavily on each and every terms and conditions.

but what i have seen after coming outside India, we treat every Indian as Indian (or more precisely as 'desi'), even if they are distant people of Indian origins from Fiji islands or Samoan islands.
(i hope neo and adityacool will agree with me here) :)

we shed all the biases just because we want to feel safe as a minority community overseas.

that's why i can say that we are selfish people and we need to improve upon this biasing.

the day we get educated and stop this biasing we would automatically become a better nation. :)

that's it. end of story.

At the outset, I'd like to convey my regret to Sabrina for what she got to witness. I just want to let her know that she is part of a better and a more loving society. There are people out there who would be far from carrying such outlook as was witnessed by her. So I implore her not to let the incident affect her. The problem clearly is in the mindset (not even people). I am sure many here would have expressed their sympathy to her.

Very relevant topic: 'National Pride vs Jingoism'. I think it was a good idea to have isolated the matter; courtesy Neo2000. Infact, I am glad to have come across the term 'Jingoism' for it clearly creates a line and defines a specific attitude as separate from national pride. Else, I used to wonder why certain people feel so aggressively patriotic and why do I, having been born and grown up in the same country, not get it!

History was discussed here, and discussing it might seem off-topic, but it's actually our history and accomplishments that our national pride must be based on. We should make a BIG DEAL out of our accomplishments and its outcomes and infuse in our kids a sense of pride. The Hindu numeral system, the invention of 0, the pioneering insights into astronomy, the spiritual superiority of this nation, have laid down fundamental basis for so many modern breakthroughs of our age. There are customs and traditions in our cultures we follow in our everyday lives that have wisdom behind them, but we do not know of; a wisdom we can be proud of, instead of irrationality that we struggle to explain. Our history books, sadly focus more on British rule. And the British rule, for that matter is fine as well. It's not that a nation (not necessarily ours) without much in its past to be proud of cannot prosper. That just infuses a will to prove yourself, which infact is the attitude of today's youth (and it's fantastic). Progress can happen either ways. But there really is whole lot of REAL stuff to be proud of, worth of which is not illustrated or rather is not celebrated in the books that our children are educated with. And if there comes a feeling that there is less stuff to be proud of, then we get out there and accomplish new feats so that our kids have it known. What it ultimately does is, instil the people with a certain respect for their forefathers for what they did for their country. And you feel pride in your lineage. And then the country is passed on to you and you don't abuse it. That's national pride. That's something I can be proud of. Higher the accomplishments, more the pride! But asking someone to be proud of something, without telling or knowing what to be proud of is just asking to build up false emotions - false sentiments with no basis. Empty vessels then end up making loudest noise.

As long as we stick with reason, we promote good welfare. Knowing the rationale behind our customs and traditions makes us cognizant of the real motive behind them. Once we are aware of the motive, the focus shifts from the 'custom' to the 'motive'. With this shift, we allow change to happen. Because we open the opportunity to serve the motives better, with the changing times, IF NEED BE. All this by keeping Jingoism at bay, because the Jingoist cannot justify his biggest argument of 'sticking with the tradition' by not serving the real motives better. We must promote reason in our everyday lives.

No one is less capable than the other. Infact, its not that India is ('inherently') better country than any other country. Every country is as capable. It's what the people of a country do with that capability which makes the difference. And if there comes out a country that does better, then we honour that, respect that, and learn from that, and come out better, or best! It's the best way to progress - to acknowledge the existence of a problem and identify its solution. Inspire and get inspired.

Someone suggested, there are only 2 types of people - good & bad. It's a great thought! But let's take a step ahead in abandoning the bias and just say: There are only good and bad actions. Then those whom we regard bad know that no one is irredeemable, and they just need to start doing good actions, and they can start anytime. People with certain mindsets are not aliens; they are our own, grown from our own society. May be just battered and hurt in certain corners of their hearts. Terming someone (extended to some sect/group) as 'bad' is an extremely alienating and damaging act. It creates boundaries as rahicecream suggested. Forgiveness has great healing ability, for both the forgiven and the forgiving. In this case, the power rests with Sabrina. I hope she forgives and moves on :).

in India National language is Hindi but English followed which is like common protocol for every Indian but somehow this protocol has not been so successful in bringing communities together.

A factual mistake caught my eye.. India does not have a national language. India has two official languages - Hindi and English.
Since you have a penchant for supporting your arguments with articles -- >
There's no national language in India: Gujarat High Court - Times Of India

with regard to my previous posts specific comments mentioned by by Neo and pendyal there are different evidences apart from counter argument has more or less direct or indirect relation towards National Pride.

but i would like to summarize main points which directly represents the face value of the argument.first of all what are the different factors required for unity.now if you take an example of any developed country or country whose economy is now only robust but also growing at a appreciable rate.
there may be different religions, different cultures in a country but they all follow particular protocol common for all it can be in any context.
now the easiest medium is Language as a protocol to be followed with language comes a sense of sense of belongingnes which is shared by each and every member of the community,for example in France inspite of different religion and cultures people speaking different dialects but they follow a common dialect that is french which is commonly used in every academic institution to work place.similar is the case with China,Italy,Russia,spain etc..
so this belongingnes brings togetherness and this eventually gets them into a progressive path working together for country win-win situation.
yes of course this also depends of stability of government and how much it is liked by its own people.
in India National language is Hindi but English followed which is like common protocol for every Indian but somehow this protocol has not been so successful in bringing communities together.its still considered as borrowed language here people do work but they feel comfortable many times to express their views in local dialect.
such comfortable feeling when comes in through sharing a common language then this itself acts like a magic wand clubbing different communities in faster and efficient way.

as mentioned by Neo regarding language let me explain with analogy there is class of 100 students 90 students are there who apart from knowing their dialect know a common dialect which is easily spoken and comprehended but the remaining 10 are facing here difficulty as they find comfortable with speaking in their own dialect but not able to learn the common dialect whatever may be the reason.now teacher comes so for a teacher will it be easier to get those 10 students help in learning common dialect or would it be easier for making 90 students learn the particular dialect those 10 students know.

as mentioned by pendyal yes its true that most of the states dont have hindi as language well even in south but ithink except TN and kerala other states like Karnataka and AP also people are well versed in Hindi they can speak and understand same holds true for Maharashtra Gujarat Bengal Orissa. if you consider rural areas may be they may not have learnt that common language because they never fel the necessity to learn and use it to interact with other communities to work with.Now for NE region its govt fault to some extent for not able to provide sufficent support for growth and development of that region which made the people living there alienated thus Hindi being banned.
But if one goes script wise all the languages except tamil and malayalam rest originated from sanskrit and hindi being one of the offshoots of sanskrit being devnagari script is easily understood because of this common dialect affect.thus even in these states where hindi is not spoken still they understand and speak hindi and if put into practice even they can also speak perfect hindi.

when the language of a particular dialect is spoken by the majoity of people then culture automatically takes a definite shape thus bringing different communities closer then whatever intrinsic differences each culture has but extrinsically due to common dialect they are united this gives a automatic feeling to work together for a progressive and better society!!!
The sooner the people of the nation relaize that their common dialect and individual dialect has come from one source the better is for the people and for the country!!!

The beauty of India lies in the fact that we are the most diverse country in this world and we harbour the maximum number of cultures,customs,languages and lifestyles.

....

beautifully put rahicecream

one of the most beautiful posts i have seen on this forum.....wud recommend this for the best post award agar ho sake toh

I have been following this thread from the beginning and what I dont understand is the need of this thread.We have no right to pass our judgement on things which are controversial or could lead to controversy.Issues like reservation and minority rights are quite sensitive ones and shouldn't be involved in any sort of discussion.This forum should be kept clean and away from controversies and this discussion wont lead to any fruitful result either.So my sincere request to moderators would be to kindly close this thread.

P.S-I am not here to get involved in any sort of argument.So if you don't agree with my point you can groan me rest this is democracy everyone is free to air his/her view.:)

The beauty of India lies in the fact that we are the most diverse country in this world and we harbour the maximum number of cultures,customs,languages and lifestyles.

We are a proud nation whenever this topic is considered superficially. But the question is 'Are we really united inspite of all these diversities' There isn't a clear cut answer to it. There are two kinds of people in this world. One who hates and one who doesn't.

The one who hates, will feel frustrated that why someone is speaking X language, why someone is worshiping such and such God. But one who doesn't will respect all the religions, all the languages,all the states. He knows that though he can't speak a particular language but still that language belong to him only in one way or other. Suppose my brother knows to play guitar and I know violin, so should I start condemning guitar. Never. Because it is also a part, a characteristic of my family. This is what is called National Pride. Respecting everything and hating none.(By this I am not meaning that love the evil and wrong things of country, that comes under jingoism)

But there are negative elements in our society too. They will hate you if you don't speak hindi, they will hate you if you are from a backward state called 'Bihar', they will hate you if you are a southie....and the list goes on........

But the perfect way to deal with them is that don't categorize them as a cast/sect or a religion but as an spoiled element. I have faced anti-bihari comments in many parts of country but I never considered that that particular state hated me. There are good and bad people everywhere.

If a hindu hurts a muslim or vice versa, a muslim/hindu should never think that it is the hindu/muslim sect which treated them badly but they should consider that as a fault of that particular individual.

I don't understand why people have created so many boundaries among us. Why we hate a particular state, isn't it a part of our own country? why we hate a particular language, isn't it a part of our rich culture? Forget states and districts ,people fight in a particular colony also ...east colony vs west colony

The day one forget all these boundaries and start considering whole of India as ONE......and respecting the diversities, there won't be any such problems. I was appalled at that guys comment on her post. How and when so much hatred got instilled in innocent minds.

Politicians are playing their parts. It's only WE youths who have to come ahead and instill thoughts of pride and not jingoism in our coming generations. We shouldn't laugh and become an accomplice when a group of our friends is making fun of some particular sect/language. We should tell them it all belong to us. This diversity is what makes India special.

At this point i'd like to end all discussion on History and our past invaders. If you have something to contribute to the topic under discussion, please do. Any other contribution will be deleted.

For those who are into britishers,please go to bharatrakshak.com,it is a website run by senior defense analyst.
To just give you a preview,britishers looted money equivalent to today's 4.5 trillion dollars from 1857-1947.
Indian economy today-1.2 trillion dollars.so you can take a guess.britishers are directly responsible for 56 lakh perple killed in great famine of bengal.please make a visit.i am surprised to see this kind of defeatist attitude on this forum.

1st Get ur facts right buddy..
@d time of bengal femine in 1942 43..a democratically elected provincial government..was ruling under a central british head..
it was these indian provincial government like punjab,who refused to part away wid their surplus food grains..despite british calling..due to the govn of india act 1935..british lose any leverage on provincial govnments..
n yup british exported grains to already starving british indian army..who were abroad due to world war 2..n which contained more indian men than british.
bengal femine occured due to crops failure n capture of burma by japan..which was a major exporter of rice for bengal..when british asked indian ruled punjab to part away wid its surplus..punjab decided to 1st safeguard its interets.
So it is dese to directly blame for famine..
source:wikipedia

N for d 5trillion loot..same did d other invaders..n same did d indian kings..nizams n peshwas..did u valued how much british left in india..how much they contributed to make us wat we are now..WATIF IT WAS FOR THERE OWN BENIFIT n how much india is still recieving as loans n forwards..

Is this thread now adding any value to forum ? i guess its heading nowhere ..


Requesting mods to do the needful

Not all threads are supposed/expected to add value to the forum. This is a topic on which discussion needs to be done. Agreed that the discussion took a tangential route, but I still think the thread should not be closed.

Is this thread now adding any value to forum ? i guess its heading nowhere ..


Requesting mods to do the needful

For those who are into britishers,please go to bharatrakshak.com,it is a website run by senior defense analyst.
To just give you a preview,britishers looted money equivalent to today's 4.5 trillion dollars from 1857-1947.
Indian economy today-1.2 trillion dollars.so you can take a guess.britishers are directly responsible for 56 lakh perple killed in great famine of bengal.please make a visit.i am surprised to see this kind of defeatist attitude on this forum.

@HIRAKMS
i totally agree wid u
but,u got my point totally wrong.
i hav mentioned earlier in my post dat britishers did dat for their own benifit.
n as i said i believe its everyones right to think about the expansion n prosperity of there race..british did d same.
im not justyfing all the horrors that you hav mentioned in ur post..but tell me one thing when an invader does such things on us..it is remembered throughout d history..but wen a native..a fellow king does far worse than that..its just a fact..
my point was india suffered much worse injuries by some its own kings..nizams n all Self proclaimed rulers..dan d britishers..1stly ones who outrightly supported british..2ndly dose who kept mum
3rdly dose who looted n massacred 1st n 2nd in d name of rebellion..
it was their fault to serve our country on a plate to britishers..wat britishers did was outright selfish..but as i said everyone has a right to serve d betterment of oneself..
There was no india when they entered..they united it to make wat it is today..
n credit for entry of religion into politics goes to Mahatama gandhi..wen he appealed to muslims to join d national movement by merging it into khilafat movement..
n pls read history of indian national movement to grab that while muslims were brought into politics by gandhi..they got d idea of pakistan by realising d fact that..on count of their minority..they will never be able to form a government at the centre.

very well said bro..
its true that britishers looted us..but so did indian kings,nizams,srimaths n peshwas..it were british who made the much needed infrastructure..on which india's growth rail progressed..
watif for their own benifit..many of indian laws are of british origin n much of indian metro citis culture is nothin but an influence of britishers..they united our country which at that time was just a table of scattered selfish self proclaimed kings n nizams..

it was the fault of these self proclaimed leaders who failed to unite to save india from invaders..in my belief its a birth right of every race to think for its expansion..britishers did it..mughals did it..it cud be rightly said that we indians were unambitious from d begining n still are..as claimed by USA..leave a few exeptions like chandragupta n ashoka..

Now buddy, this has gone on too far and I felt compelled to post here. I agree that Britishers created some much needed infrastructure for India but it was not out of any love for India but for their own benefit.
And, thinking Britishers were good for India is downright wrong. The amount of horrible atrocities committed by the Britishers on India and their other colonies is so huge and so horrible that if it were published and acknowledged by the British then they would have to face a horrible public and world backlash.

It was the BRITISH that followed the policy of divide and rule by inciting hindus against muslims in our peaceful country and masterminded the bloody partition by egging on both Nehru and Jinnah. This scarred both our countries forever and the result is for all to see.

IT was the BRITISH that left thousands of Bengalis to starve to death through drought because they had taken away the big harvest to their own country and didnt deem necessary to leave even enough to feed the people of Bengal.

It was the BRITISH that ruthlessly murdered innocent Indians whenever they asked for freedom, whether it be the jallianwala bagh massacre or the crushing of the Soldier's revolt.

And there are plenty of other unreported incidents which you won't find in any textbooks, because it was the BRITISH who destroyed most of the evidence of their atrocities not only from India but from all other of their colonies.

Don't believe me?? Read this article:
Deny the British empire's crimes? No, we ignore them George Monbiot | Comment is free The Guardian

It is a from a British newspaper. Atleast the German (Nazis) are better than British that they never deny their holocoust atrocities but rather condemn it. The British have never even acknowledged their atrocities let alone condemn them. You can google it and you will find many articles saying of the destruction of proof by the British of their atrocities.

And saying about the British help to India - yes they created the rail network but it was for their benefit so that they can trade goods easily all over India as well transport their soldiers smoothly. Other than things that helped them, they have done nothing for India. And in return they have extracted a huge payment from India.

British were NOT GOOD for India or any of their other colonies. And believing otherwise is living in Fantasy land.

Quoting from the British writer of the article above "The myths of the British empire are so well-established that we appear to blurt out countervailing stories even as the atrocities are told."

@palliative: Reading history of Britishers in India by western writers will mostly lead you to believe that the British were all good and godly. You will rarely get the true story in such books

Whoa.

For people who are inclined to think that all the britishers did was to loot,plunder and maim India,please PLEASE read " THE WHITE MUGHALS" by William Dalrymple.


As has been mentioned before,a few sour apples spoiled the entire barrel and we choose to remember what massages our egos.Yes,there have been instances in our past where we were humiliated by invaders.But,is that the case with just India?No.

I am a novice when it comes to discussing history but I am trying to learn as much as possible.Anyone here is free to agree/disagree with afore-said views.

very well said bro..
its true that britishers looted us..but so did indian kings,nizams,srimaths n peshwas..it were british who made the much needed infrastructure..on which india's growth rail progressed..
watif for their own benifit..many of indian laws are of british origin n much of indian metro citis culture is nothin but an influence of britishers..they united our country which at that time was just a table of scattered selfish self proclaimed kings n nizams..

it was the fault of these self proclaimed leaders who failed to unite to save india from invaders..in my belief its a birth right of every race to think for its expansion..britishers did it..mughals did it..it cud be rightly said that we indians were unambitious from d begining n still are..as claimed by USA..leave a few exeptions like chandragupta n ashoka..

thanks for your self made history lesson.babur come when he was at his ....

atithis were babur,gaznavi,abdali,iauri,britishers,pourtgese,tughlaks,french,bin qasim.
Atithis are not present day indian muslims.they are as equal citizen like u and me.k
last post.

It has nothing to do with me having a defeatist attitude. For a variety of reasons we were over-powered by a stronger ruler at a certain point of time. Every one of these invaders have not only left a mark on India but have also mixed with the local population.

Bin Qasim - Invasion - Sindh - 710 ( i should admit this person was new to me and Wiki was an interesting read)
Gazni - Invasion - 1008
Tughluq - Dynasty - 1321 - 1398
Babur - Invasion - 1526 (Battle of Panipat)
Abdali - Invasion - 1748 (though some might argue Third Battle of Panipat - 1761)
British - Invasion - 18th Century
French - Trading posts - 1741-1954 but the latter half of that was with the British under a treaty - Total area controlled 508 Sq km

Is it only me or have all of these invasions occurred 200-300 years apart? Long enough for the previous dynasty to have come to an end.
Also, yes - the britishers came when the mughal dynasty was coming to an end - as a nation we were weak. As did Babur, Gazni and Abdali.

All of this has no relation to the topic under discussion in this thread so I apologize for deviating from the topic. Again, as pointed out - discussing past invaders has no contextual bearing to the topic under discussion. We have self-awareness now - what are we doing NOW to prevent the discrimination that is happening?

adityacooool Says

But you said atithis should remain atithis, right? What was that about? You clearly meant to target present day muslims. I am sorry dude but you are just going back on your word. And that's just sad. You are free not to reply to this post and clarify your argument in clear, understandable, and sensible way if you are too scared or anything. :)

special thanks for your post
and it reminds of 1 statement said by someone
"why We indians are so different whether it is in terms of religion...color...races...
then he said donkeys are of same time but horses are not"

and i don't want my nation and my people became donkey....

and those my simple statement to myself when i get irritated or frustrated by south indian people not understanding hindi...
is
"constitution allows them to speak...read...write whatever language they want...then who i am i to challenge and also we have to adapt according to society or acc to masses because human being is an social "animal" we can't survive alone"
and everybody living in this nation is equal...no one can discriminate in between them on any basis

atithis were babur,gaznavi,abdali,iauri,britishers,pourtgese,tughlaks,french,bin qasim.
Atithis are not present day indian muslims.they are as equal citizen like u and me.k
last post.

But you said atithis should remain atithis, right? What was that about? You clearly meant to target present day muslims. I am sorry dude but you are just going back on your word. And that's just sad. You are free not to reply to this post and clarify your argument in clear, understandable, and sensible way if you are too scared or anything.

Whoa.

For people who are inclined to think that all the britishers did was to loot,plunder and maim India,please PLEASE read " THE WHITE MUGHALS" by William Dalrymple.


As has been mentioned before,a few sour apples spoiled the entire barrel and we choose to remember what massages our egos.Yes,there have been instances in our past where we were humiliated by invaders.But,is that the case with just India?No.

I am a novice when it comes to discussing history but I am trying to learn as much as possible.Anyone here is free to agree/disagree with afore-said views.

since you are giving a source to clarify.i also want you to visit bharatrakshak.com to get the full detail of british period esp after 1857.pls make a visit.

Whoa.

For people who are inclined to think that all the britishers did was to loot,plunder and maim India,please PLEASE read " THE WHITE MUGHALS" by William Dalrymple.


As has been mentioned before,a few sour apples spoiled the entire barrel and we choose to remember what massages our egos.Yes,there have been instances in our past where we were humiliated by invaders.But,is that the case with just India?No.

I am a novice when it comes to discussing history but I am trying to learn as much as possible.Anyone here is free to agree/disagree with afore-said views.

Like I said, can you please elaborate your atithi comment that you made in your last post. That'd be very very helpful. :)

Also, err... The aryan point was in a bracket, that was not even a part of the argument, that was just additional info. Comprehension and Interpretation skills are taking a major hit here, I think. Best of Luck for CAT, brother. :)

Thank You.



LOL! Speaks volumes about your confidence in what you believe. And No Thank You. :)

atithis were babur,gaznavi,abdali,iauri,britishers,pourtgese,tughlaks,french,bin qasim.
Atithis are not present day indian muslims.they are as equal citizen like u and me.k
last post.

they told kindly talk either in English or tamil people dont like those who speak Hindi.i was shocked i thought if this is the case then tamil nadu has no right to call itself part of India.This country doest need state like tamil nadu where anti-hindi slogans were routinely made it can progress much better without it and more shocking was the public there openly making mockery of Lord Ram making derogatory remarks.

If India has one ideology,one language,one community including several others which favors the ideology of that community for National interests and if for this national jingoism is to be spread for taking India to the top most and mots powerful position then with such thinking one can expect country to progress at faster rate.first and foremost thing is every citizen of the country ought to speak Hindi all institutions colleges administrative offices work education and every other kind of activity should take place is Hindi then slowly a common culture will evolve.

i am going to quite blunt here and if it hurts anyone's sentiments then it is intentional....

i am shocked by the post made by this "senior" user....who are they to decide that anybody who doesnt like hindi or any state that doesnt like hindi is not fit to be a part of india? then please go ahead and carve AP, TN, Karnatak, Kerala, Orissa, Maharashtra, Gujarat and the entire f-ing north east out of the country....we will see what a wonderful country, economy that will be left....

the whole beauty of our country was that people were free to practice any religion, speak any language dress however they like, eat what they like as long as they dont cause offence to others (as wud be judged by sensible people)

I would like to ask people like this, how do they call themselves indians if anyone who comes from the 4 southern states is a Madrasi, anyone from the northeast is a chinki - shameful situation that the supreme court had to step in and say that anybody doing so wud be prosecuted. And you (ppl like the person i quoted here) guys have the right to ask us to leave the country (sounds like a rant...coz it is...i have spent enough of my life trying to explain to my friends, my family - in laws - and anyone who cares to listen that i am not a madrasi but a telugu and a hyderabadi at that). If this is how i am going to be treated in my own country then i would rather not be an Indian....I am happier being a telugu

(like i said, this message/post is meant to rile people....)

realitycheck Says

you have already infer so much that i dnt need to imply anything.dude u believe in aryan theory,u are putting your case on the basis of aryan theory.lolz.i have no words for it.tell me wasnt gaznavi,babur,abdalis invaders or they were some travellers.plese dnt take me as anti muslim.anti invader is one thing and anti religon is other.

Like I said, can you please elaborate your atithi comment that you made in your last post. That'd be very very helpful. :)

Also, err... The aryan point was in a bracket, that was not even a part of the argument, that was just additional info. Comprehension and Interpretation skills are taking a major hit here, I think. Best of Luck for CAT, brother. :)

Thank You.

realitycheck Says

Please discuss with me on pm not on pg forum.i am ready to discuss anything from ait,mugals,britishers anything but only om pm.ready,steady,go

LOL! Speaks volumes about your confidence in what you believe. And No Thank You.

I have SO DAMN MUCH to say to your post, and trust me I will. But can you please just clarify what Atithi stands for in your post? .....
Please clarify your earlier post regarding the atithis so we can have a PROPER discussion. :)

you have already infer so much that i dnt need to imply anything.dude u believe in aryan theory,u are putting your case on the basis of aryan theory.lolz.i have no words for it.tell me wasnt gaznavi,babur,abdalis invaders or they were some travellers.plese dnt take me as anti muslim.anti invader is one thing and anti religon is other.

Please discuss with me on pm not on pg forum.i am ready to discuss anything from ait,mugals,britishers anything but only om pm.ready,steady,go

In my view
there are only 2 type of people
1) Good
2) Bad

It doesnt matter they are from which religion or country. The problem is now a days 90% of people are bad aka selfish . Professionalism= Dishonesty/backstabbing.

People instead of being sad on others problems are happy and being happy on others happiness are sad.

All this resulted in a total hypocrite society today. Sad state of affairs.

top post,totally agree with you.atithi is not devo bhawa.atithi should remain only atithi only.we all have seen what the foreign people have done to india in the past mughals,tughlaks,britishers etc.
It is high time we should learn our lesson.
...

I have SO DAMN MUCH to say to your post, and trust me I will. But can you please just clarify what Atithi stands for in your post? Are you by any chance using Atithi for Muslims (177 Million!!), Parsis, North East Indians, South Indians, North Indians (80% of whom are direct descendants of the Aryans), or every single person in India who moved from Pakistan and now Bangladesh into India at the time of partition? I would LOVE for you to clarify this. And THEN wait for my reply. :).

Also, btw, Islam did not come to India with the Mughals. It came to India 300 years before that, in the 1200s, And frankly, I hate to think that you can possibly discriminate people and call people atithis just because they follow a different set of values and belief systems than you do. They have been born into this country much like you have, they contribute as much to the country's social and economic growth as you do, probably even more. So why should they be treated any differently than you are? It's like I think you are stupid just because you don't follow my train of thought.

Please clarify your earlier post regarding the atithis so we can have a PROPER discussion.

thanks for your self made history lesson.babur come when he was at his peak?.really.gaznavi ,britishers came when we were weak and they were strong'huh..so we were always weak in past 1000 years..what a defeatist attitude..thanks to foreigners for saving us from another foreighner(mongol).i know i will get banned,since i am not saying what mods want to hear.sugar coated lies..

I see no point in drawing parallels between what is happening now and what happened during the era of the Mughals and the British. Today we are a country and not a a collection of kingdoms as we were then. Its not like we are being invaded or something. Even if there are some apprehensions about the policies of our government, we have vocal and empowered citizens in our country who can act as a check. Though our democracy may not be perfect and not as efficient as it ought to be it is much more better then having a dictatorial regime.

There are plenty of lessons to be learnt from the 'Arab Spring'. What we are as a country today is due to to our democracy however flawed it may be. Being accommodating should not be seen as a weakness or defeatist attitude. During the world wars there was mass migration from Europe to the United States and the migrants have greatly contributed to the cultural,political,social,scientific evolution on the US. Jingoist views without any rationality are a great threat to our country that threatens to destroy the very fabric of our country. Being rational and accommodating and being wary about any problems that we may face in the future at the same time is the way forward.
Cheers !!!

India popular saying "Athiti Devo Bhava" has costed heavily on its national pride,integrity leading to slavery to mughals and Britishers who ruled over India by policy of ...
amendments in constitution which woule be best serving national interests till that time it would be still developing country.

top post,totally agree with you.atithi is not devo bhawa.atithi should remain only atithi only.we all have seen what the foreign people have done to india in the past mughals,tughlaks,britishers etc.
It is high time we should learn our lesson.

I don't like Fisking and I will probably have to ban myself but what you have written has far too many factual errors and gross misstatements.

....

thanks for your self made history lesson.babur come when he was at his peak?.really.gaznavi ,britishers came when we were weak and they were strong'huh..so we were always weak in past 1000 years..what a defeatist attitude..thanks to foreigners for saving us from another foreighner(mongol).i know i will get banned,since i am not saying what mods want to hear.sugar coated lies..

I don't like Fisking and I will probably have to ban myself but what you have written has far too many factual errors and gross misstatements.

cognizant_81 Says

India popular saying "Athiti Devo Bhava" has costed heavily on its national pride,integrity leading to slavery to mughals and Britishers who ruled over India . .

I don't even understand the relevancy of this para to this thread. Firstly "The Sun never sets." is originally from the 16th-17th century and refers to the Spaniards. Also, it's a geographical reference that there's always a region of the empire that has light. It's a great way to emphasize the strength and the size of the empire but it makes no difference to the common man because it didn't affect their lives in any way.

Our Indian rulers did not stand at the borders and welcome our invaders history is replete with rulers who fought a losing battle. Every time we've been attacked it was by a civilization at the peak of its powers be it the Britishers or the Mughals. Or even Alexander the Great. The moment India was captured, more or less they were done trying to invade any other country. If you read your history further, the Muslims that invaded us helped keep the Mongols at bay in the 13th century at a time when the Mongolian Empire was at its peak.

Ireland and Scotland are still fighting for their freedom from the British. It's been a long and bloody war for the two tiny nations but last I heard they were still going strong. Ireland has its own separate Cricket and Football teams too.

now India is a democratic country everybody agrees with that i suppose but is it truly democratic or just in lietral sense on papers India is known to be democratic country.

I like the article but again I don't see the relevancy to this thread the article discusses the fundamental difference in the power-balance between the elected representatives and its people in two different nations. It does not discuss national pride or jingoism. Again, as the article rightly point out, the Americans fought for freedom from the Britishers and did everything their way from the Constitution to the usage of FPS system to driving on the "wrong side" of the road. Democracy = People Vote for their Government + People have Many Rights Freedom, Expression etc. India Check.

Now US today is the super power is a democratic nation ironically India is still in developing stage and still calls itself democratic country.now if somebody wants to understand the true meaning of democracy then either of this has to be true. .

What? So developing nations cannot be democratic in nature? Really?

the judge is supposed to be making favors in decisions of other nations who have always by the side of judge.
so again it becomes like king and its subjects the ones which are loyal are always rewarded with precious gifts the ones which are neutral are not shown that much interest and the ones which are against are treated as enemies and judge alias king tries to punish them in maximum possible ways. .

In International courts, the judge makes decisions on who is right and who is wrong, irrespective of who is the stronger nation. The International Court of Justice is one of the most respected international courts. If you are talking of economic arbitration, then that usually comes down to between two nations and whatever agreements they have between them. Those are mostly political games and it is but natural that the stronger nation is going to win.

If we talk technology, the EU has handed out some pretty strong fines to plenty of big American countries. If, as a company, you break a law you are screwed. Doesn't matter how many people you employ in the EU.

while Britishers left India they made constitution is their own self styled manned that if not directly indirectly they can control certain economic and political powers on India after getting well acknowledged with the sentiments and mentality that Indians carry.infact the .

This is full of conspiracy theories. I stated very clearly that if you are going to make a claim, please do back it up with proof. Given India's size, population and problems before independence, you cannot expect us to get to a fully developed nation in 60years. I agree that we should be a lot further ahead than we are today but I have full faith that we shall get there some day.

cognizant_81 Says

The problems Indians are facing is lack of unity the day they are united 80% problems are solved. .

Spot On!! Best line I've heard in this entire essay

cognizant_81 Says

US to some extent fears china reason there has been huge market of Chinese products in US suppose a war like situation occurs and China withdraws all its products then US economy can be again in doldrums. .

Nope. Chine does own a large part of the US debt but also note that the US is directly or indirectly the largest buyer of the Chinese producs. If China were to withdraw all its products, then they'd stand to lose a lot as well. Economics 101 Mutual cooperation is beneficial to both parties.

now how is this possible is it because they are like God gifted or something or is it like genetically they are far superior no infact they are working together for goal of improving their living standards and making country feel proud of them.
.

Aren't Indians also working hard to make this a better country

I fully empathize with you on the J&K; flag-hoisting. Unfortunately that's been a badly-handled situation that is now very political in nature. Unless something drastic happens, I do not see a resolution to that problem. And there are far too many of them an entire generation of J&K; youth has grown up knowing only violence, while another section of Kashmiri Pandit youth have no idea what their hometown is like.

cognizant_81 Says

.first and foremost thing is every citizen of the country ought to speak Hindi all institutions colleges administrative offices work education and every other kind of activity should take place is Hindi then slowly a common culture will evolve.

Why Hindi? Why not English? It's spoken by more people than Hindi itself. You are now annoyed that Tamilians are expressing the kind of solidarity that you want the rest of India to show One Language, One Community, One ideology. Shouldn't we switch to Tamil since we already have a strong base of devoted followers.

well i don't post on such a serious thread...but this time i am ready to make a exception.....
1st of all about that incident with the user...i would say it is not sad...

because when we people who are well read but can't support a particular religion,race,sex...or fight against a particular ideology...
when we people can't judge what is right and what is wrong...
when for most of us religion becomes more important than science
when a particular group of people has been targeted for any mishappeneing in the nation....

we are world's best hypocrates...
we vote against lanka...but we don't see what is happening in kashmir or in 7 sisters of east(Armed force special power act)

when we tend to ignore "iron sharmila"...then what we can think or imagine will happen in this nation...
people are more interested in studying TOI delhi times or movie page...rather than reading about struggling labour....

i know we all are busy in our life and that is pretty much true that we don't have to go out on streets everyday...to raise our voice against every issue...we need to work for our hunger...because we re middle class people...
but atleast we can read unbiased piece of writing...and share our knowledge with those people who are ignorant of certain facts i think this our duty as an well read student...
but i must say we are failing in that....we are again and again reading state sponsored articles...
whether it is about BT cotton or about anything else
we had very bad past but every country has its share of past baggage...and we need to manage with that only...

and also if you wanna compare india n usa
usa got there freedom-4th july 1776
and india-15th august 1947

isn't this unfair to compare????/

I am a man who believed I died twenty years ago. And I live like a man who is dead already. I have no fear, whatsoever, of anybody or anything. - Malcolm X

P.S.-sorry for any grammatical error...

The problems Indians are facing is lack of unity the day they are united 80% problems are solved.i was working as an HR for a consultancy and was making survey of a private company which has collaboration with Chinese company i found Chinese workers toiling hard to finish the task when Indian labor has been simply sleeping and having chit chaat.now this is what Indian mentality here comes out if you think that because Chinese came here as Indians go abroad to work so they work hard for money then ithink its rather other way.
1HKD(Hong Hong Dollar)= 35.62 INR

A chinese worker getting 5000 hong kong dollars monthly is getting 10000 rs working for Indian company on contract basis which you can calculate how much would it cost in Hong Kong dollars.so on behalf of getting less money he should be least interested in working but still its in their culture to work hard because they want to prove they are best and indeed they have been successful today even US to some extent fears china reason there has been huge market of Chinese products in US suppose a war like situation occurs and China withdraws all its products then US economy can be again in doldrums.
one can see japan after Hiroshima Nagasaki bombing still Japanese technology is advancing faster eevn it has surpassed the western technology in electronic products.Vietnam,Malaysia,Singapore being the next ones their economies are strong enough to withstand the global recession.
now how is this possible is it because they are like God gifted or something or is it like genetically they are far superior no infact they are working together for goal of improving their living standards and making country feel proud of them.

In each of these nations national sentiment is very strong i once went to china on behalf of company just asked one of the fellow chinese how china has developed in recent decades.he replied national jingoism when kids they are taught about greatness of China and the power China will seek and one day China will become Super power and they will create new history that is what mentioned in History books.
in India that thing lacks few years back iwent to Madras and was asking the local people about platform details for going to Bangalore and to my dismay nobody replied ithought because of language problem.when i asked in English still didnt get obvious answer next iwent to Enquiry center and asked him in English he shouted back i dont know go and check yourself and i cursed him so 5-6 people surrounded me there was kinda scuffle when a person tried to misbehave slapped him hard for his rude intolerant behaviour then police came and i told them then they told kindly talk either in English or tamil people dont like those who speak Hindi.i was shocked i thought if this is the case then tamil nadu has no right to call itself part of India.This country doest need state like tamil nadu where anti-hindi slogans were routinely made it can progress much better without it and more shocking was the public there openly making mockery of Lord Ram making derogatory remarks.similar kind of language problem if ones goes to Maharashtra their though the problem was related to language problem and that also created by MNS and its party workers which people of Mumbai has shunned them with petty politics. the most shameful incident is hoisting of pakistani flag in Indian soil and Govt doing nothing for this .now with so much intrinsic conflicts regarding language region religion etc and politics how can one expect India can progress.

If India has one ideology,one language,one community including several others which favors the ideology of that community for National interests and if for this national jingoism is to be spread for taking India to the top most and mots powerful position then with such thinking one can expect country to progress at faster rate.first and foremost thing is every citizen of the country ought to speak Hindi all institutions colleges administrative offices work education and every other kind of activity should take place is Hindi then slowly a common culture will evolve.