What Is The Problem With India ?

[Cymba]

Originally Posted by hameed

I dont think we should compare percentages.... If India's problem is only terrorism from Pak and the military secrecy of China...then I dont see why we are amasing such weaponary...

and to put things in perspective....heres a dose...

Compare the 89,000 cr spent on defence last year to the below

education - Rs 24,115 cr
health Care- Rs 12,546 cr

Do we have world class education and health provisions in India available to all ?
I dont think so, while education and health budgets should be set keeping in mind the per-capita and the population...the defence budget need not always be 4% of our growing economy.....I think there are genuine reasons to stall the military modernization a little and spend on more important fronts.

Hameed bhai, i don't agree with you on these two ponts..

Military: The threat of terrorism is very real. Plus, being surrounded by hostile neighbours such as Pak n China doesn't help either. As India grows on the world stage (both economically and politically), this threat would increase. A superior military system not only defend ourselves, but also discourages othr parties from taking a hostile stand against India.

India is relatively a safe country (excl the border areas), compared to the current crisis across the middle east and south east Asia. It's not that we are short of enemies. Jst that till now we have been sucessful in prevent outside threats from affecting the rest of the country.

Our neighbours won't shy from striking India, were it not for the elaborate military sytem.

Education: 2% education cess is being charged at every point of sale. Plus the amount allocated by the centre. Can u imagine wat a neat figure one would arrive at when you add it all up. Money is not a problem. But hardly 10-15% of this sum is actually is spent on Education.

Quoting no.s is useless. The key here is implementation. Imagine the possibilities, were this amount (24000cr) being actually fed in the education system. Of course, by the grace of our Babu log, that is a distant possibility.

[gabriel666]

Originally Posted by Cymba

Hameed bhai, i don't agree with you on these two ponts..

Military: The threat of terrorism is very real. Plus, being surrounded by hostile neighbours such as Pak n China doesn't help either. As India grows on the world stage (both economically and politically), this threat would increase. A superior military system not only defend ourselves, but also discourages othr parties from taking a hostile stand against India.

India is relatively a safe country (excl the border areas), compared to the current crisis across the middle east and south east Asia. It's not that we are short of enemies. Jst that till now we have been sucessful in prevent outside threats from affecting the rest of the country.

Our neighbours won't shy from striking India, were it not for the elaborate military sytem.

Education: 2% education cess is being charged at every point of sale. Plus the amount allocated by the centre. Can u imagine wat a neat figure one would arrive at when you add it all up. Money is not a problem. But hardly 10-15% of this sum is actually is spent on Education.

Quoting no.s is useless. The key here is implementation. Imagine the possibilities, were this amount (24000cr) being actually fed in the education system. Of course, by the grace of our Babu log, that is a distant possibility.

I am sure you know where India stands on the social life indicators list prepared by UN, we are right there with African countries and countries like Bangladesh. So quoting numbers is very important, a trillion dollar economy spending about 5-6 billion dollars on education is a joke (not the funny one).

Terrorism is a threat, no doubt, but we really dont need such a humongous military infrastructure to deal with terrorism nor do we need it to maintain a strategic balance with China and Pakistan. Ask any defense expert and he will tell you that conventional arms superiority means nothing when our enemies posses nuclear weapons and have a "first use" doctrine. We would be better of negotiating with our neighbors to guarantee peace rather than making south asia the most armed area in the world.

According to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself the biggest security threat that India faces today is Naxalism (btw India by no accounts can be called a safe country, rather we are a pretty unstable country by most standards), whose aim is to dislodge the writ of the Indian state . With more than 1/6th of the country under naxal control, this is going to be our biggest security threat compared to any other threat, external or internal. The root cause of all naxal problems is the absolute apathy shown by the government in providing people the basic necessities of life like education, healthcare, employment etc.

So, I am totally with Hameed on this, rather than spending such huge amount on defense use it for education, healthcare and other basic necessities. In the long run this will make India more strong, not a strong military protecting a broken down nation.

Regards

[Cymba]

I agree when you say... but you missed hte key points of my arguments

Originally Posted by gabriel666

The root cause of all naxal problems is the absolute apathy shown by the government in providing people the basic necessities of life like education, healthcare, employment etc.

Wats the importance of quoting figures..?
Military budget- 80,000cr
Education budget- 24000cr (approx. as mentioned in the previous post)

How much of this 24000 is going towards Education..?? (or healthcare, if that be the case)
Evn if you go and amass thrice this amount for education that won't change anything as long as there is no implementation.

Plus read my post carefully. I am talking bout outside threat. And india's superior might has prevented unwarranted attacks. Negotiations and foriegn policy will be effective only when you are strong enuf to state your position at the table.

Agar India ka military program nahi hota, toh mere bhai, kaun sunta hame...

[gabriel666]

Originally Posted by Cymba

...
Wats the importance of quoting figures..?
Military budget- 80,000cr
Education budget- 24000cr (approx. as mentioned in the previous post)

How much of this 24000 is going towards Education..?? (or healthcare, if that be the case)
Evn if you go and amass thrice this amount for education that won't change anything as long as there is no implementation.

I have no problem with India spending billions of dollars on defense (I am not a pacifist who believes that everything can be solved by negotiation ), provided we spend a comparable amount on education and healthcare too. A country with limited resources will have to sacrifice key areas like education if we keep on increasing our defense budget.

Implementation is a problem but that does not mean we stop spending on education, doing that would simply be throwing the baby out with the water. Work on implementation, but at the same time increase the budget allocation on education, by any standard 6 billion dollars spend on education, in a country with a population of more than a billion (half of which are youths), is very very low.

Originally Posted by Cymba

Plus read my post carefully. I am talking bout outside threat. And india's superior might has prevented unwarranted attacks. Negotiations and foriegn policy will be effective only when you are strong enuf to state your position at the table.

Agar India ka military program nahi hota, toh mere bhai, kaun sunta hame...

What I am trying to say is that India's internal threat (naxalism, civil unrest in parts of India) is as serious if not more than the external threat (actually according to most defense experts including the NSA, threat from naxals is much more serious). We are not doing enough to address the internal threat because we are spending way too much resources in addressing the external threat.

I find it abominable that education is among the last priorities for most governments in the center, when it should be the most important priority. Most of our universities have pathetic infrastructure and a huge majority of our youth do not have access to even these universities. We already have MNC's and IT companies complaining about the quality of students from Indian universities. We are deluded if we convince ourselves that we are going to be a superpower without addressing these basic concerns.

Like I said before I have no problem with government spending billions of dollars on needless defense equipment provided they spend the same on education, health care and other basic necessities.

Regards .

[murty001]

Again the age old discussions, military expenditure, education budget, farmers suicide..blah blah . You can read all this stuff in daily newspapers and with ample masala added to it. So what is the point in discussing this on this thread? Feel good factor, is it?? All those people who are discussing here, when was the last time you did something good? When was the last time you helped an old lady cross the road, when was the last time you got up from a seat in a crowded bus to allow an elderly person to occupy it? When was the last time you refrained from cribbing and pushing the person in front of you while standing in a long queue? When was the last time you searched for a dustbin to discard waste instead of littering?

How has India's huge military expenditure affected your lives?? Can you enlighten me please? It hasn't affected mine of course!

If at all you people are the 'thinkers' you claim to be, then think about ways and means by which you yourself can make this place a better one to live in. The goverment has enough advisories and it doesn't come to PG chit chat thread for suggestions. See whether you can do something which can bring about a small change in the locality you live in. Then you can start thinking about the country. Now that so many people have joined in the thread, come up with something valuable instead of copy pasting what everyone reads in newspapers. Let us see whether this thread goes anywhere from here or is just another case of empty vessel's sounding more.

Cheers..

[hameed]

Originally Posted by murty001

All those people who are discussing here, when was the last time you did something good? When was the last time you helped an old lady cross the road, when was the last time you got up from a seat in a crowded bus to allow an elderly person to occupy it? When was the last time you refrained from cribbing and pushing the person in front of you while standing in a long queue? When was the last time you searched for a dustbin to discard waste instead of littering?

Cheers..

Let us see whether this thread goes anywhere from here or is just another case of empty vessel's sounding more.

And what shalt thou do? Pontify from a high pedestal is it?

See whether you can do something which can bring about a small change in the locality you live in. Then you can start thinking about the country.

Is this some new rule??

How has India's huge military expenditure affected your lives?? Can you enlighten me please? It hasn't affected mine of course!

Well, I dont think we should discuss only things that affect our lives. I think we should be more responsible than that.

The goverment has enough advisories and it doesn't come to PG chit chat thread for suggestions.

yes, you are right. So what?

Now that so many people have joined in the thread, come up with something valuable instead of copy pasting what everyone reads in newspapers.

True, I pray this happens and that you too would chip in - a request

Rock on!
hameed

[gabriel666]

Originally Posted by murty001

Again the age old discussions, military expenditure, education budget, farmers suicide..blah blah . You can read all this stuff in daily newspapers and with ample masala added to it. So what is the point in discussing this on this thread? Feel good factor, is it?? All those people who are discussing here, when was the last time you did something good? When was the last time you helped an old lady cross the road, when was the last time you got up from a seat in a crowded bus to allow an elderly person to occupy it? When was the last time you refrained from cribbing and pushing the person in front of you while standing in a long queue? When was the last time you searched for a dustbin to discard waste instead of littering?

Because the age old problem still remain. If you feel they are not important enough to discuss, please do find your way out.

Not that I feel obliged to prove anything to you but I do spend a large amount of my time every week working with kids from slums all over Pune in the field of education and health care. This might not match up to your candy floss version of "good" (which I bet are examples you remembered from your 2nd grade civics textbook) but I will make my peace with it. I am also not going to ask you what you have done for the society which allows you to be so sanctimonious while advising others.

Originally Posted by murty001

How has India's huge military expenditure affected your lives?? Can you enlighten me please? It hasn't affected mine of course!

This was probably one of the most ignorant statements on PG (Congratulations !!).. The huge military expenditure indeed does not affect your life but neither does farmer suicides, crime, someone robbing your neighbor etc. So why don't you close your eyes to everything. As I said I work with underprivileged kids on a daily basis and I know that better access to education can do wonders for them. So yes, I do have an opinion on it.

Originally Posted by murty001

If at all you people are the 'thinkers' you claim to be, then think about ways and means by which you yourself can make this place a better one to live in. The goverment has enough advisories and it doesn't come to PG chit chat thread for suggestions. See whether you can do something which can bring about a small change in the locality you live in. Then you can start thinking about the country. Now that so many people have joined in the thread, come up with something valuable instead of copy pasting what everyone reads in newspapers. Let us see whether this thread goes anywhere from here or is just another case of empty vessel's sounding more.

Please stop making straw man arguments, no one over here claims to be "thinkers". Everyone participating in this thread (except a few) showed interest in discussing something that they felt was harming India, which according to me is better than participating in the thread to just criticize people who care to at least discuss issues. I guess there are no prizes to guess who the "empty vessels" are.

Originally Posted by murty001

Cheers..

Cheers to you too..

[murty001]

And what shalt thou do? Pontify from a high pedestal is it?

This dig doesn't require a comment. Just shows how serious you are with things

Is this some new rule??

Now stop asking questions like a kid. Just find out if you have the strength of causing a small change in atleast your locality. Then you can jump around screaming hoarse about reforming the country. It's not a new rule. It is something which is more realistic than talking about reforming the country.

Well, I dont think we should discuss only things that affect our lives. I think we should be more responsible than that.

How are you being responsible by sitting in your bedroom, with a laptop and a hot cup of tea, googling india's expenditure on defense and posting it on the thread?

yes, you are right. So what?



True, I pray this happens and that you too would chip in - a request

I have already chipped in on various occasions(not related to this forum), and I will if something good comes out eventually. I don't believe in trying to sensationalize events and show my GK by quoting figures on India's defense expenditure or laloo's expenditure on his haircut. That least bothers me.

Anyway, have fun in your discussion. Maybe this will help you all to crack your GD/PI's, earn your degrees and astronimical salaries. And 2 years after your MBA's you can always come back and start a thread and quote fresh figures, and maybe some equations too which you have learnt in your MBA.

Cheers..

[hameed]

Before this thread gets hijacked by small time bickering that would serve nobody's purpose let me re-iterate our purpose here and steer this thread towards a more saner and safer mode of operation

Firstly, we all agree that there are certain things that jus arent right in India

So then, instead of complaing about it (as suggested by Apurv earlier) and without arguing about its effects ( as pointed by Murty) Lets get down to what can be done.

For sometime i wondered about the format in which we would carry this forward, but then it struck me that whatever maybe the right thing to do, is in most probability being attempted by someone somewhere, albiet not successfully. What we can do, is look for possible solutions to certain problems and see if they are indeed the answers we are looking for.

One of the main problems we have in our midst is Corruption

Now, this is a problem of the system, some say it is a necessary evil, but then some effort to confront it is being made.

An NGO from chennai - named Fifth Pillar, has come up with a rather innovative idea. It has released a 'zero rupee' note. The point being that everytime someone asks for a bribe, the citizen hands him this "zero rupee" note ( which looks like a 50 rupee note)

“When handed over to people who are corrupt, they anxiously get the rupee, then they’re shocked and then they turn angry,” said Fifth Pillar Vice-president Rathna Pandian. “It’ll create an impact over the people,” said T Viswanath, a volunteer

The organization has printed 25000 such notes and is in the process of having this distributed to all common citizens. The group says that it has checked its legal position carefully and is not deemed to be printing counterfeit money because the official design is on only one side. The other side carries its mission statement.

This hadning over the 0 rupee note to the bribe seeker is said to work in the principle of Gandhiji, wherein the bribe seeker is made to feel ashamed of his act. A few sucess stories of this endeavor have already been mentioned

But is this the answer?? Is this a step in the right direction? Will just seeking to tap awake the conscious of the corrupt do the trick? now that is what we need to discuss.

I am sure you will have your own ideas and opinions... pour forth

Let us keep our eyes open for the small beams of sunlight seeping into our midst, they may contain the answers to the maladies that plague us today.

Rock on!
hameed

[murty001]

Originally Posted by gabriel666

Because the age old problem still remain. If you feel they are not important enough to discuss, please do find your way out.

Not that I feel obliged to prove anything to you but I do spend a large amount of my time every week working with kids from slums all over Pune in the field of education and health care. This might not match up to your candy floss version of "good" (which I bet are examples you remembered from your 2nd grade civics textbook) but I will make my peace with it. I am also not going to ask you what you have done for the society which allows you to be so sanctimonious while advising others.



This was probably one of the most ignorant statements on PG (Congratulations !!).. The huge military expenditure indeed does not affect your life but neither does farmer suicides, crime, someone robbing your neighbor etc. So why don't you close your eyes to everything. As I said I work with underprivileged kids on a daily basis and I know that better access to education can do wonders for them. So yes, I do have an opinion on it.



Please stop making straw man arguments, no one over here claims to be "thinkers". Everyone participating in this thread (except a few) showed interest in discussing something that they felt was harming India, which according to me is better than participating in the thread to just criticize people who care to at least discuss issues. I guess there are no prizes to guess who the "empty vessels" are.




Cheers to you too..

<snip. just lost it. I agree. We should engage in serious discussion about the national economy, education system, reservation bills, lalu's hair style, before going to bed.>

Cheers..